Engineer's certificate for remap ?

[gregozedobe]

I was talking to a person in ACT registration about remapping an engine ECU (for more power and torque). His job is to deal with "technical" issues relating to roadworthiness and registration, so he's not an ignorant help desk person that doesn't know the regulations.

He was adamant that for any recently manufactured cars to remain legally registered, the owner would need to get an engineer's certificate stating that after the modification the car still complied with all relevant ADRs.

As well as an assessment of braking and handling capability, this would include passing the "IM240" emissions test (apparantly done with a warm engine to a set pattern on a dyno, and not available in Canberra).

He further said that a type or generic approval was not acceptable, and that the certification and testing had to be done on my individual vehicle after the modification.

Do other states have this requirement ? He said it was part of the "National Code Of Practice for Light Vehicle Construction and Modification (NCOP)" and that all states were (or should be) adopting this.

page 29 of VSB 14 on the following link gives more details http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roa...tin/index.aspx

He (and other state registration authorities) are quite aware that many people are remapping for more power, but at the moment detection and enforcement is not a high priority for them. He expects that if there are some high speed crashes of remapped cars it will suddenly become a political priority and they will clamp down on the practice.

Has anyone actually bothered to get an engineer's certificate for a remap ?

From reading the NCOP document and discussions with the gentleman I mentioned above, it seems to me that without a certificate a remapped car is technically unroadworthy, with all the unpleasant ramifications of that unhappy state (legality, insurance). I don't think I'm comfortable with being unroadworthy, even if the chance of being found out is minimal.

Or have I misinterpreted something significant somewhere ?

[gareth_oau]

hmmm, sounds like a minefield. i'd suggest that what he told you was what he had to say. But in reality, the whole world lives by a different set of rules.

I recently bought my car in Qld and transported it to Perth. it had to go over the pits for inspection before initial registration. I stated at the time it had aftermarket exhaust, remap and DV. He took it for a spin, and then gave it back with a big grin on his face, and it was registered with no questions asked.

Having said that, in Perth, once a car is registered it never gets inspected again, no green slips or annual checkups (unless the car is defected by police if you are pulled over for something dodgy) - our system seems a bit gentler than yours

[DaveMack]

I think if they tried to enforce that at this late stage ... 10 -> 20% of new vehicles (less than 5 years old) would be put off the roads for something that could be considered 'trivial'.

Statistics would, more than likely, have brought to light any increase in fatalities / crashes of 'ECU-doctored' vehicles by now ... if it was going to happen at all. Maniacs will still drive like maniacs whether they have a 'chipped' car or not and I don't think 'chipping' cars is likely to change the overall percentage of drivers like that.

My .02c.

Cheers,
Dave

[bazzle]

Drivers skills aside chipping and remapping, exhaust, inlets mods etc have been an area for a while now where you can be challenged due to changing the emissions requirements etc of a motor vehicle. This may be illegal unless accompanied by proper testing and recertification to show where certain ADR requirements are met.

I too would be worried re being roadworthy and and the implications if challenged by a state authority let alone being wiped by an insurance company.

All they normally say is that your car must be roadworthy even if you have notified them. Easy for them to find an out.

[Logzy]

What a load of crap.
An engineers certificate would be required if you were perhaps doubling the power and torque output of the engine.
In this case the engine would then be putting out more than what the chassis structure, brakes and rest of the car are designed to withstand.

To say a remap requires an engineers certificate without knowing the revised output figures is rubbish IMO.

[Tim]

What a load of crap.
An engineers certificate would be required if you were perhaps doubling the power and torque output of the engine.
In this case the engine would then be putting out more than what the chassis structure, brakes and rest of the car are designed to withstand.

To say a remap requires an engineers certificate without knowing the revised output figures is rubbish IMO.

to deviate from the factory map may deviate from the factory emmissions. Thats probly why they would want it engineered. You have to get an aftermarket ECU engineered. I dont see the difference other than no-one will ever know.

[Russ59]

Sounds more like another grab by the government for the working man's cash to me.

[Transporter]

It can get very interesting, considering that every engine is made to deliver

certain amount of power, lets say max 130kW, software will keep it at 125kW, this is

to allow for different driving condition. Over the time engine wears out a bit and

engine produces less power as well (with some changes in emissions). Than someone

puts the re-flashed ECU or chip and belts the cr*p of that engine - the car is not complying with ADR anymore and for sure the

emissions will be out of specs, so IMO it is the right step.

If you want more power get different model - with more power where the engine power is

matched to brakes, suspension, transmission etc. In short the car is made to handle that power.

[gerhard]

Yeah, a gov't grab for cash....

How would a "working man" feel when his insurance claim is denied due to not forking out a couple of hundred for the certificate.

A "working man" shouldn't be able to afford a flash anyway, it's for the pleasure of men who don't work..........

Back on topic, technically it's correct that a change to engine emissions would require re-compliance with ADRs. In reality it'll probably never be found out, unless you blow so much black smoke from a re-map that it chokes the breathalyser operator ......

[mrx]

I had an engineer's certificate for a rally car I used to own. The "engineer" didn't seem to care about the modifications to the engine & suspension components, emissions, etc. His concern was the welding on the roll cage and the anchoring points for the harnesses & seats.

You really can't miss a rally car with it's fancy paint job, ridiculously large red mudflaps & the number on the side. Unless you've got your road car decked out in a similar attention seeking fashion, then I personally wouldn't bother with the certificate.

If people are really that paranoid about getting "busted" for their ECU reflash, then perhaps it really isn't for them. Also, if the dealerships of the car manufacturer can't even detect your ECU reflash, then what chance does a government department (which doesn't know the specifics of every ECU on the road) have?

[The_Hawk]

An engineers certificate is required whenever you modify your car away from stock, there is question about if a set of coils technically requires a certificate, so is it really that suprising to hear that the emmissions side of the rules would also be checked?

The reality of anyone actually looking into these things is another thing entirely, although technically it's up to you to prove your car is ADR compliant if requested. So if your insurer has a chip listed on the policy then asks for an engineers certificate to prove it's ADR compliant before paying a claim...

Yeah, not a legal expert so I don't know how far that would actually go, but the real question is whats the reality of these things? Will they ask? If you are concerned about the risk, get an engineers certificate, problem solved.

There are lots of questions...
* what about removing your rear wiper???
* Different wipers? (Aero)
* Different high flow exhaust (even without removing items)?
* Different Steering wheel?
* Different sized Wheels?
* Different Head/tail lights?
* Tinted Windows?

While the ADR lists limits for many things, like the colour and location of lights or emmission and sound levels for exhaust, moving away from factory spec on these things may require testing.

Does anyone know what the limit is before testing is required? Like no one cares if you legally tint your windows or put different wheels on the car, but where is the line where you *need* testing?

Technically the Tint place is supposed to only do legal things to road cars, as is the exhaust place, but who checks? (or better still, who is required to check?)

[gregozedobe]

To say a remap requires an engineers certificate without knowing the revised output figures is rubbish IMO.

Hello Logzy, do you have any evidence to support this opinion ? My contact at ACT rego said it didn't matter whether power was increased by 50% or 5%, the change would still need to be certified. I had read somewhere about less than 20% power increases being subject to less stringent requirements, but that doesn't appear to be the case (not in the ACT, anyway).

On the responses so far it seems clear to me that most people are currently relying on the registration people not finding out they have been remapped (and I agree that at the moment it would seem to be pretty unlikely).

Being a decidedly risk averse sort of person (hence I'm asking about these issues BEFORE I get a remap), I'm interested in what can be done to improve performance and still remain legal, not what "you can probably get away with at the moment".

It would be interesting to see something substantive from remapping vendors (and their representatives) about the compliance (or non-compliance) with the relevant ADRs of their product/s (remaps, exhausts, intakes etc) .

I am genuinely interested in a remap for my 2.0 TFSI ( I Like the idea of more mid-range grunt plus a little more top end), but it is important to me to be 100% legal. For me, getting an engineer's certificate and doing emission tests 300Km from home would certainly add to the cost and complexity of getting a remap.

I thank everyone for remaining civil so far, and I hope this thread stays that way.

[Russ59]

How would a "working man" feel when his insurance claim is denied due to not forking out a couple of hundred for the certificate.

"Technically" it's up to the insured party to tell their insurance company of any modifications made to the vehicle anyway, so if they hadn't and their insurance wiped them, then that's their bad luck, on the other hand if they did tell them and they requested an engineers certificate it would all be fine and legit wouldn't it, but I'm sure the insurance company could find a way around that !!!

A "working man" shouldn't be able to afford a flash anyway, it's for the pleasure of men who don't work..........

If this is the case then anyone receiving the dole is obviously being paid too much money.......... or there are a lot of older gents out there wanting to be young again........



Russ

[Guy_H]

We have been involved in the legalities & the government departs for 7 years, and its not clear cut.

As an importer / distributor / retailer of the products, (fully insured for everything we import) I can tell you that the "code of practice" does not cover "remapping". Nor does it technically cover enlarging the turbocharger of an already turbocharged car.

Now state by state enforcement of the rules is a different issue. Pretty much all that can be enforced are modifications that can be visually & audibly detected:

Exhausts - Noise & emissions - probably # 1 - they have methods for testing this, and there are more rules & states linked together for enforcement of this.

Intakes - Exposed pods - obviously a big nono in each state.

Front mount intercoolers - Mostly big, obvious exposed ones.

We have had meetings with the traffic enforcement branch (Police) in QLD regarding these matters, and our national organisation AAAA (www.aaaa.com.au) has run through all the possibilities for us - you could fill 50 pages of a forum thread regarding these matters.

My advice:

Purchase all your products through a fully licensed, fully insured operator.

If importing your own products - check the laws first (ignorance is not an excuse).

[brad]

From reading the NCOP document and discussions with the gentleman I mentioned above, it seems to me that without a certificate a remapped car is technically unroadworthy, with all the unpleasant ramifications of that unhappy state (legality, insurance). I don't think I'm comfortable with being unroadworthy, even if the chance of being found out is minimal.

Or have I misinterpreted something significant somewhere ?

Haven't read all the replies so maybe this has been said......

A few years back I was doing similar research.

Technically, your car no longer complies if you carry out any changes to the operation of the engine that wasn't part of the manufacturers specification. Therefore any non-OEM exhaust or induction system will make your car non-compliant. So will changes to camshafts or other parts of the valvetrain. Any changes to compression, different turbos, etc. All non-compliant.

In practice, this isn't enforced, hence all the independent muffler shops, foam or cotton filters, the reasonably bouyant aftermarket scene & the proliferation of companies offereing remaps to anything from VWs to Holdens.

Personally, I think a remap would be the most stealth way to go unless the start doing emissions testing at the rego checks (and even then you can swap back to standard).