Gotta love Tdi economy

[ParaBul]

read this... a quick link
The Prius Bad for the Environment?

Main issues relate to:
Dust to Dust study from Total cost of Production to End Of Use.

Then there is the outrageuos Prius battery raplacement program costs to concider.

This is an interesting topic that's been discussed in various forms on countless websites over the last few years. I've never had much time for the Prius, but because I now need a new car, and will benefit from fuel efficiency, I had another look at Toyota Hybrids, and even test-drove a the Lexus CT200h (hybrid) - and pick up a Golf GTD this Friday.

However, I do think that the Toyota hybrid system is something that people love to hate, and it has received unfair treatment.

The "Dust to Dust" study has been strongly criticised, and is suspect at best. Something like http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integr...r_vs_prius.pdf is a much more scientific assessment.

In my (limited) experience, I noted that the "Dust to Dust" supporters love to talk about the Prius highway economy; a friend of mine owns a Prius, and reports that highway returns the worst economy. Why won't critics talk about city cycle economy, where the hybrid system is supposed to be best?

I had long thought that a replacement battery pack for a Prius is $10k; the Lexus sales rep assured me it's only $2k - but he is a car salesman, and I didn't get it in writing, so I don't know that I should trust him. Is $2k outrageous? Volkswagen told me I should budget $1k for a 60k km service, so $2k after 10 years doesn't sound totally outrageous to me.

It also occurs to me that the original criticism looks at the US market, after shipping the Prius from Japan, and presumably shipping it back again. What happens if the same assessment is performed in Japan, and the H3 has been shipped across the Pacific twice?

I believe that the batteries are recyclable, but how much of the nickel in any given battery is "recycled", I have NFI. I noticed a criticism of the amount of copper in the motors; how much of that is recycled?

Critics of electric vehicles also love to talk up the coal fired power stations creating the electricity (incidentally, much of the coal is mined here in Australia, even if it is crap coal). But Australia also has significant gas powered, hydro, and wind power, so (theoretically) the pollution created in order to generate electricity is reducing, and the current proposed carbon tax / ETS will effectively tax that pollution - but it won't be taxing the pollution that comes from my exhaust pipe. Regardless, in the context of the Prius, who cares? The Prius charges its batteries from its on-board internal combustion engine, so coal-fired power stations are irrelevant.

OK, I think I'll stop now. And before anybody gets too upset, I didn't buy a hybrid - they're too slow.

[sparkie]

Can we get back on topic please? This is a thread about how far people have been getting on one tank of fuel, start something about hybrids vs TDis yourselves (please!!)

[gldgti]

Last tank I ran BP dino diesel instead of biodiesel (got to 0km range and chickened out 10km from my usual servo with B100). Fuel economy for the dino tank was the same on average as my normal b100 average, a little surpised about that. Smoke out the back was up though, and the idle was a little rougher.

without wanting to be responsible for someone putting bad fuel in their lovely TDI, i'd almost say anyone who knows a good quality biodiesel outlet should feel safe enough using it in their PD TDI.... but ofcourse I wont actually say that, will I?

[Buller_Scott]

would conservo fuel qualify as good quality BD? there're a couple of outlets in melbourne.

[gldgti]

would conservo fuel qualify as good quality BD? there're a couple of outlets in melbourne.

thats not something I can answer unfortunately.

As has always been the case, there's still no enforcement of the australian standard. The standard itself exists, and it requires the biodiesel to be as good or better than any european standard for biodiesel (which VW warrant) - so if you know the fuel conforms to the standard, then it should be just fine.

Whether it conforms is really entirely up to the producer/distributor. In my case, I've been able to use the fuel over a long period of time in cars that it didnt matter so much, and found it to be excellent. That, coupled with the fact i've mentioned before that the servo that i get the fuel from has awards for fuel storage clenliness.

As a start, it might be worth your while getting a 5l jerry can full of it, put a jar of it in the fridge and see what happens...As i remember fuel conforming to the standard shouldnt jell above about -6, but its easy enough to google around and find the standard and check. (try starting at dutchaussies website).

Try asking the proprietors about their fuel storage etc... you never know, they might be very helpful. Ask them about how much of it they sell and who buys it, and if they have lots of regular customers.

[Buller_Scott]

thanks for the info gld!

i think for the mean time i might persevere with the usual suspects in terms of fuel outlets, and keep poppin that 2 stroke in the tank.

i DO like the idea of biodiesel though. we're all fcking up the planet in some way, but if i can reduce things a little (i only buy recycled toilet paper, refuse to buy bottled water etc)....

[5pot]

If you want a place that manufactures and sells to the likes of Caltex, try Biomax in Laverton North. They manufacture here and sell a bio-dino mix at a bowser that they have on-site. It ranges from B5 to B20, depending on the season. They set their price ten cents below caltex's diesel price I think. Something like that anyway.

Be aware though, the nozzle they have at the bowser is too big for a MkV golf. I learned that the hard way. Twice.

I've got dino in my car at the moment but I ran a couple of tanks of B10 just prior to my last re-fill and the car ran fine. It still conforms to the diesel standard so, I don't see why it would be bad for your vehicle. Economy was the same for me. I'll be heading there for another tank once I've used my current tankful.

I'm curious what 100% bio would do in my car but I don't have the cash to stump up for a new motor/injectors/other fuel-related part of choice so, I'm sticking to the bio-dino mixes for now!

FYI, this company has a MkV TDI (1.9? it has no reference to the capacity of the engine so, I assume it's the 1.9) Golf that they run on the same mix that they sell at their bowser.

[kaanage]

Phil Buggee has run a Fiat Punto TDi on Biomax B20 in quite a few competitive events over the last couple of years like Targa Tasmania and the Adelaide Tarmac rally with no ill effects.

[Dave198]

I haven't read every post in this thread about economy and biodiesel and stuff, but I have a MY07 2.0 TDI and it says on the inside of the fuel flap, 'Not for Biodiesel'.
I guess there is a reason for saying that, but I am not sure why.
I am also a bit surprised how many want to run their tanks dry to see how many K's they get out of a tank.
The lower the level of fuel in the tank, the more chance there is of picking up some accumulated muck off the bottom of the tank.
As good as the filters are, a minute bit of muck in the fuel could cost you an injector, especially with CRD. Deep pockets needed there.
In my opinion, play it safe and only run down to about half a tank and then fill up again. It is still very easy to work out your lts. per 100 kms that way.
I also have a 12HT powered Landcruiser and never let that go down below quarter of a tank.
I figure that I have to fill up at some stage, and there is less likelyhood of condensation in the tank if it is kept fairly full.
cheers

[Gigitt]

I haven't read every post in this thread about economy and biodiesel and stuff, but I have a MY07 2.0 TDI and it says on the inside of the fuel flap, 'Not for Biodiesel'.
I guess there is a reason for saying that, but I am not sure why.
I am also a bit surprised how many want to run their tanks dry to see how many K's they get out of a tank.
The lower the level of fuel in the tank, the more chance there is of picking up some accumulated muck off the bottom of the tank.
As good as the filters are, a minute bit of muck in the fuel could cost you an injector, especially with CRD. Deep pockets needed there.
In my opinion, play it safe and only run down to about half a tank and then fill up again. It is still very easy to work out your lts. per 100 kms that way.
I also have a 12HT powered Landcruiser and never let that go down below quarter of a tank.
I figure that I have to fill up at some stage, and there is less likelyhood of condensation in the tank if it is kept fairly full.
cheers

Fuel is picked up from the bottom of the tank, so I don't see the logic in not using all the fuel in your tank... other than in areas where there are hot days and really cold nights and condensation can form inside the tank - then water sinks to bottom of tank... then thats what your water tap is for on the fuel filter!

[gldgti]

There's a lot of other threads about bio....

I typically use a tank a week and pretty much always take about 50L to fill it up, in a 55L tank. With such high turnover of fuel, I see no problem with running it low. Perhaps if I was using a tank every month or so I would think differently.

Do a search around about biodiesel and you will see than every VAG car after about 2003 has that written inside the fuel cap (if its a TDI) and it has nothing to do with the car's ability to be fuelled by biodiesel - rather it has to do with the operators ability to fill it with high quality compression ignition fuel. I'm an old hand with bio so I know the risks

I haven't read every post in this thread about economy and biodiesel and stuff, but I have a MY07 2.0 TDI and it says on the inside of the fuel flap, 'Not for Biodiesel'.
I guess there is a reason for saying that, but I am not sure why.
I am also a bit surprised how many want to run their tanks dry to see how many K's they get out of a tank.
The lower the level of fuel in the tank, the more chance there is of picking up some accumulated muck off the bottom of the tank.
As good as the filters are, a minute bit of muck in the fuel could cost you an injector, especially with CRD. Deep pockets needed there.
In my opinion, play it safe and only run down to about half a tank and then fill up again. It is still very easy to work out your lts. per 100 kms that way.
I also have a 12HT powered Landcruiser and never let that go down below quarter of a tank.
I figure that I have to fill up at some stage, and there is less likelyhood of condensation in the tank if it is kept fairly full.
cheers

[Dave198]

gldgti, I am not sure what you mean about "it has to do with the operators ability to fill it with high quality compression ignition fuel".
Does that mean that I am a goose if I don't know what is high quality fuel?
Quoting from page 46 in my Tips & Maintainance manual. " Your vehicle is notsuitable for use with RME (biodiesel) and must not be filled up or be driven with RME fuels. If you use RME fuels your fuel system could be damaged."

I did not join this forum to have a go at anybody, I joined it to learn a bit about my newly acquired TDI.
I have been around diesels for about 40 years and I have seen recently someone who has a damaged fuel system due to a bad bit of fuel.
They had to sell their vehicle because they could not afford the $10K plus repair bill.
I haven't got that amount of money either to spend on repairing the fuel system. If the book says my engine is not suitable for Bio, that's good enough for me.
cheers

[kaanage]

gldgti is saying that VW are applying a blanket restriction because they don't trust people not to use dodgy home brewed biodiesel and want to avoid ANY warranty arguements that could be caused by this.

I'm not saying that all home made biodiesel is dodgy but there are no regulations on making the stuff so an idiot could just pour in oil collected from back of the local fish and chip shop, have the car run for a short while and then try and make a warranty claim when it all went pear shaped.

[kaanage]

Got 3.7 l/100km (trip computer avg) on the 15k run home from work today. Allowing for the 7.5% optimism of the trip computer vs measured mileage, that's less than 4 l/100km on a route that isn't dead flat

[gldgti]

gldgti, I am not sure what you mean about "it has to do with the operators ability to fill it with high quality compression ignition fuel".
Does that mean that I am a goose if I don't know what is high quality fuel?
Quoting from page 46 in my Tips & Maintainance manual. " Your vehicle is notsuitable for use with RME (biodiesel) and must not be filled up or be driven with RME fuels. If you use RME fuels your fuel system could be damaged."

I did not join this forum to have a go at anybody, I joined it to learn a bit about my newly acquired TDI.
I have been around diesels for about 40 years and I have seen recently someone who has a damaged fuel system due to a bad bit of fuel.
They had to sell their vehicle because they could not afford the $10K plus repair bill.
I haven't got that amount of money either to spend on repairing the fuel system. If the book says my engine is not suitable for Bio, that's good enough for me.
cheers

I wasnt having a stab at all - I was trying to say what kaanage was referring to - VW can't guarantee (in many countries) that if you fill up with biodiesel it will conform to a standard - as such they have to say not to use it.

If you know your fuel source and you know its good, then there's no reason a PD engine can't run perfectly well on it - but thats a risk to take, for sure.
Personally, I know the risks, I know the fuel, and if anything should go wrong I know I can fix it for the cost of parts, and I'm willing to take that risk in my position - but I never said anyone else has to or should.

I read that part of my user manual too - i read all my manuals.... I'm "that guy":