EGR should we all be more concerned

[neil]

I managed to get into EGR valve and EGR motor flap section and nearly had heart attack when I saw amount of black sht inside. The car was regularly serviced and clocked 65K in 4years. I cleaned it, but motor was damaged already so the car is back to the dealer.. it must have a catch can otherwise this will happen again. The deposits were 3-4 mm thick and some could only be removed with metal brush. I am considering fixing it and getting the magic catch can or sell the car. It took 2 hours to remove all bolts as two of them were completely inaccessible.

This is a worry after 65k's.

Can you elaborate on the damage to the motor. What is the dealer saying.



Thanks everyone for the info supplied.

[HiTorque]

This is a worry after 65k's.

Can you elaborate on the damage to the motor. What is the dealer saying.



Thanks everyone for the info supplied.

I was talking about small EGR motor that rotates round plate below EGR valve. Also a big pipe that comes into that section has sludge all around - 2-3mm thick. Ideally it needs to be cleaned, but I can't get it off the car and it's not part of VW service. Even if I get EGR motor replaced ($850+3h labor) this is the problem that will come back unless I fit a catch can. Some ppl in UK blocked input into EGR motor section leaving only 4mm hole. I need to investigate more, but I do not feel good about $40K+ car that shts itself after 4 years.

[Greg Roles]

OK so the flap motor jams up, and it costs a ludicrous $850 to replace. EGR is my new focus now!

Seeing as how the Provent seems to be the weapon of choice in combatting this, and having just reviewed the instructions, I'd love to have anyone that has worked out how to perfect the system, such as Transporter, elaborate on the adjustment, as it isn't adequately described, nor can I seem to turn the pressure reg on mine just now.

Perhaps mine isn't working effectively, as my drain pipe is blocked and simply accumulates the condensed oil, rather than Transporter, who seems to have to draining back into the sump. Hmmm, my new item to tinker with....

[gregozedobe]

My Provent has a lower hose to collect the condensed oil it catches, and it fills with a decent 100mL-200mL amount every 5000km roughly. The return line has oil film in it, and there is obviously still *some* going through the inlet.

Does your dipstick show a corresponding drop in engine oil level ?

If it does, that may go some way to explaining why some TDIs seem to use a lot of oil, and others (like my 2.5 5 cyl) hardly use any at all.

Maybe the high oil consumption TDI engines aren't "burning" a lot of oil at all (and therefore also clogging up their ultra-expensive DPFs), but are actually depositing a lot of oil (and exhaust soot) all through their intake tracts ?

That would also explain why VW are fairly unfussed about engines "consuming" what I would consider to be hugely excessive amounts of oil (up to 1 litre per 1,000Km or some such nonsense). Still not a good state of affairs, but not as worrying as thinking your rings had that bad a seal that oil was almost dripping past them and being burnt.

Hmmm, food for thought indeed.

[Transporter]

OK so the flap motor jams up, and it costs a ludicrous $850 to replace. EGR is my new focus now!

Seeing as how the Provent seems to be the weapon of choice in combatting this, and having just reviewed the instructions, I'd love to have anyone that has worked out how to perfect the system, such as Transporter, elaborate on the adjustment, as it isn't adequately described, nor can I seem to turn the pressure reg on mine just now.

Perhaps mine isn't working effectively, as my drain pipe is blocked and simply accumulates the condensed oil, rather than Transporter, who seems to have to draining back into the sump. Hmmm, my new item to tinker with....

I've done it almost 4 years ago, I'm sure that I turned the knob/cap on the side of the provent at least 1 turn in. You can't go wrong the provent has pressure release valve in the top cap. I also replaced cartridge filter inside once since then (it was completely saturated in the oil - have a lots of rags ready, if removing it). I connected the 1/2" PVC hose about 1m long to the oil return port I bent the other end of the PVC hose and secured it up where I can check/drain it as needed.
Greg turn the valve one turn in, clean the hose from the provent to the inlet duct and check it in about 200-500 km. That’s how I would adjust it.

[HiTorque]

In my case I haven't added any oil for nearly 4years. I did once after first 5K km.

[Greg Roles]

The weird thing is if it is using any oil, I can't really tell. Mabey it drops a mm or two between every 7500 oil change, but it's stuff all. I'd reckon I'm Proventing mabey 200mL every 7500k, and another 100mL or whatever is going through the inlet. Certainly not enough for me to notice or to have to top up ever.

I'll get into the Provent over the next few days, and see what I can find. The instructions are wordy, but to me they don't seem to actually tell you all that much!

[HiTorque]

Greg, where did you buy it from?

[Buller_Scott]

Cheers guys for your info- maybe its just a spiral effect, but i am officially now shtting my pants.

Cogdoc, in terms of trying to eliminate egr, say if you were to turn down egr in vag-com or with a tune(i understand that its not complete elimination, but rather minimization), and say if you had a provent installed, would this go most of the way towards achieving what the boys on the club are, with their race pipes and block off plates etc?

Also, in terms of oil sludge buildup in the intake manifold, is there any difference in the amount of accumulation, and the rapidity of accumulation, between CR and PD engines?

It seems to be somewhat of a common consensus on the club (although i sound like a tdiclub fanboy, im merely trying to get my head around all of this), that an intake clean at 100,000MILES is fine, then install block off plate and egr race pipe, but i understand that racepipes cannot be used on the 2.0 euro tdi's (which they dont get there) nor the pd100 tdi's like in the polo and the mkV golf......

In relation to the above, is it presumptuous/ dangerous to our engines to ignore EGR (except for a provent, of course) and simply replace our turbos at shortened intervals?? (as mentioned in prior posts, i will be doing mine every 100,000kms). Something tells me that the slight design differences between the mk4 boras and golfs that the folks on the club have, and their common consensus being that a cleanout and then preventative measures only being required after 100,000 miles, and OUR cars (in the context of 1.9L pd's), would account for quite alot in reality.

Ultimately, and say after around the 45k service, i'd look at getting a custom tune and requesting that the egr be minimized, and having a provent, i was hoping that, given my lack of mechanical knowledge, these two measures, coupled with turbo replacement at shortened intervals, would be enough for me to keep my oiler for quite a few years to come. Am i catastrophising by presuming that egr and sludge buildup is disastrous to modern diesel engine longevity?

And, finally, i've got my 30k service coming up in the next few weeks. would i be wise to request an intake cleanup, and if so, what do you guys reckon costs would be for a solid job like that?

Cheers again cog, and others, for the info. the wealth of knowledge of you guys is killer.

Scott

[HiTorque]

Cheers guys for your info- maybe its just a spiral effect, but i am officially now shtting my pants.

And, finally, i've got my 30k service coming up in the next few weeks. would i be wise to request an intake cleanup, and if so, what do you guys reckon costs would be for a solid job like that?

Scott

Well, what p..,ed me off was that sales/service ppl and VW service manual didn't say a word about this clogging effect of current design of diesel engine (PD in my case) and service department has never offered this EGR system cleanup. So now even if I get EGR motor and valve replaced I have partly clogged piping and perhaps near death turbo. Perhaps if I drive 150+ km/h for some hours the system would clean itself, but we don't have any long roads where you can go for hours above 100 with 110 legal limit across the state. This catch can must be installed in all versions of diesel Golf by manufacturer and not by end users.

[Greg Roles]

I bought my Provent from Mann and Hummel in Sydney. It was pricey, but is a well built unit, cost about $230 delivered from memory.

I'm unsure as to why you guys are worried about the turbo. sure the sludge factor is going to gum up the inlet, and drop a bit of top end long term, or kill the flap motor as Hi Torque has found, but as a diesel will basically chew anything, and sludge that hits the combustion chambers will be burnt up. Certainly I'm not worried about the EGR hurting the turbo, in fact the exact opposite, by keeping combustion temps down through the addition of exhaust, it prolongs the life of the turbo. As messy as it is, there's no way I'll be blocking it off till I can counter possible high EGT's with a tune or injecting water/meth for instance. Then again I'm after the performance benefit, for a regulaar user a well plumbed Provent is a good move.

On that, the biggest problem apart from finding a place to put the rather large unit, is the actual plumbing to and from the unit. I spent a fair wack of money on specific rubber hose to handle hot oil, and given the space contraints ended up using smaller hose I had bought for the drain and a wack of silastic to hold it all together. Not how I'd like it to be, but it's working, and even going to a specific hose specialist here in Brisbane, the plumb job isn't straight forward. If you research it on TDI club, you'll find guys that used regular hose had it melt somewhat due to engine heat, so plan this all in advance, and if you come up with a good solution, let me know!

Neil, a provent would limit the oil entering the area, and the only reason the sludge happens is exhaust soot plus oil film equals sludge. Minimise both, and I figure the problem is pretty much solved.

I will warn you that while it's quite easy to remove the clip and then intercooler hose coming into the flap mech, and you can access the area from below ( use a mirror ), spraying carb cleaner will have a ton of gunk come back out, even letting my car stand for some time, the thing started like it was on nitrous for the first few seconds. Even though I was careful with the amount I sprayed up there, some still got down into the ports, and baby, did it start fast.

Just be careful!

[HiTorque]

I bought my Provent from Mann and Hummel in . Then again I'm after the performance benefit, for a regulaar user a well plumbed Provent is a good move.

I found this site: http://www.saikoumichi.com/ will see if I get reply, I think he has more robust system.

[Transporter]

I found this site: http://www.saikoumichi.com/ will see if I get reply, I think he has more robust system.

Before you buy it, ask them if their catch can has a safety valve, it is important so you don't risk the blowing your engine's oil seals.
I looked at the pictures on their site and it doesn't look like it has and it's not as well made like the provent. IMO.

[neil]

I found this site: http://www.saikoumichi.com/ will see if I get reply, I think he has more robust system.

Good work, Keep us all informed.

[gregozedobe]

The weird thing is if it is using any oil, I can't really tell. Mabey it drops a mm or two between every 7500 oil change, but it's stuff all. I'd reckon I'm Proventing mabey 200mL every 7500k, and another 100mL or whatever is going through the inlet. Certainly not enough for me to notice or to have to top up ever.

So where is this 200ml of oil coming from if not the engine oil ? If it was from the engine then you would notice a significant drop in the oil level. Surely it can't be unburnt diesel fuel via the EGR ?