to smoke or not to smoke

[Buller_Scott]

I voted smoke 'em. I think the plume is hilarious. Facing reality, I only pick on equally slow and crappy cars in my Polo TDI, but gunning it off the lights to see a cloud cover the 1.5 Lancer super ricemobile next to you is so funny. Especially when they have the aftermarket fail xenons at night, you can see the diesel smoke so clearly... lmao.

i picked on an Audi R8 the other day. man that thing is FFFFAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSTTTTTT.

[Buller_Scott]

wait until you chip it

i think im going to have to take the plunge after the 30,000km service.

ive got used to the car now, and a mild stage 1 tune, plus 2.5inch DP is starting to look like the most i would want in terms of power upgrades.

well, that, and some modification DIY style to the SMIC shroud

[gregozedobe]

Another long response - you don't have to read it (but there is a gem hidden inside)

And the debate continues..... I notice you consistently used bold in your reply. Is that meant to imply you have raised your voice slightly, or is it supposed to add gravitas to your reply ?

Alas, i do not have a lack of consideration for others, Au-Contrare dear sir.

I'm sorry if I misjudged you, I must have gained the wrong impression from some of your statements on this forum :

" i voted wrong and did smoke em baby....
however i love a good plume under hard acceleration (i always look in my mirror when i get up it for the soot hehe)", and

" ohh thats a favourite pass time of mine floor it, look in rear mirror at haze behind.... smile ", and
"

Yep, nothing better than giving a tailgater a taste of diesel!

AMEN to that, love sooting everywhere!

cant wait to get a free flowing exhaust, then the soot will come", and

".... if the person has breathing difficulties they can just turn off outside air.", and

"yes I do rather enjoy laying a "good plume" under hard acceleration. I can also tell you that the mood takes me quite frequently with a chipped TDI ", and

" im a soot man, the more soot the better, especially infront of open topped convertables ", and finally (I got sick of looking at this stuff) :

"ahhh too true steve, your VR6 will be choking in my soot until you get the bloody thing blown".

Like any rational being, I was basing my conclusions on the evidence available to me. Remember, I have no knowledge of you apart from what I choose to read on this forum.

.... if you were that deeply concerned about others and the general invironment, you would bike everywhere.

( debating technique #23, "Personal attack on opponent" - in some venues this will result in points being deducted from your score, and you even repeated this attack later on)

I'm not the one attempting to defend excessively smoking diesels, you are (and if you aren't defending excessively sooty diesels, exactly what is it that you are spending all this energy trying to disagree with me about ? )

... but I ask you this, what is a large amount of soot? Not even perfectly tuned diesels will ever run entirely without sooting, nor will a petrol

I thought I made it pretty clear what I was criticising when I said :
"large amounts of soot", "large quantities of visible pollution", "excessive soot" (3 times), "smoking excessively" and "excessive smoking".

If you really want a guideline for what I think is "excessive soot" then off the top of my head I would start with something along the lines of " A cloud of black soot with a volume of at least 1 cubic metre, clearly visible in daylight, persisting for more than 5 seconds in still air, produced by an engine that is at normal operating temperature."

Again true, but as we can surely talk in laymans terms here, the general populous seems to think Diesels are dirty, sooty engines that produce huge amounts of pollution.

Do you think this might just have something to do with the fact that diesels produce more visible pollution than petrols, and there are some "highly visible" diesel offenders out there. Which is why I try to persuade people that "excessive soot" is bad for us all in the long run, not a badge of TDI honour and most definitely NOT a source of amusement (for the emitee, not the recipients).

In some ways I regard deliberately producing a large cloud of soot in front of some other vehicle as being the automotive equivalent of dropping your dacks and farting right in a stranger's face. Maybe that is why I (and others) dislike it so much (and why yet others seem to like doing it so much) ? Think about that for a moment (once you stop laughing)

I have seen plenty of new VW's (mine included, before chipping) that produce soot under acceleration, not a constant plume but a decent haze, enough to be seen in daylight. I have also witnessed it in a number of other manufactorers diesel cars. Are you saying that a brand new car is lacking in maintanence and has a poorly designed engine just because the emitting of soot?

I am prepared to say that any brand new diesel car producing ""excessive soot" is unsatisfactory (by my standards at least). You are trying to wriggle/slide from my wording of "excessive soot" to just "emitting of soot" (and I noticed ).

It won't be too long before all new diesels will require DPFs (or some other efficient soot control mechanism) to pass emission requirements.

From the fact that my statement takes your breath away, can I therefore assume that you are one of the people that suffer shortness of breath?

If you did you would be quite wrong, but I do have a sensitive nose (I can sniff a match being struck or cigarette being smoked from 50 metres downwind). I have a lot of sympathy for people with health problems (of any kind).

I do believe that its already legislated against (obviously not directly to diesels), and if your car were submitting an obscene amount of soot than you would have the EPA knocking on your door with a defect notice, diesel or not!

It all depends on what politicians decide to make a priority for our regulatory enforcers. If they decide there is some votes in catching polluting vehicles, then the current rules on pollution may be applied rather more stringently (and frequently) than at present. That is why I would prefer diesels have a lower profile than at present (the big picture view).

**it amazes me how you have to categorise my statements, is this for your own benifit or for the masses that fail to see/comprehend what my statements infer?

Classifying your arguments was mainly for my own amusement, but if anyone else enjoyed it or even found it edifying that is fine by me

no where in my statement did I agree with excessively smokey diesels

I am very interested in your definition of "excessive soot".

You sir have taken my rhetoric much to seriously and need to lighten up!

Sorry, I happen to believe this is fairly serious topic that I hold strong views about, so I expressed them. I have remained factual, argued rationally, not been emotional, maintained control of my temper, and neither insulted you nor made any personal attacks.

By the length of your response it appears you also take this topic pretty seriously.

Not to worry, I have retained my perspective, albeit one that is somewhat different to yours. I'm pleased we are able to have a civilised debate, even if we can't agree. So often these types of disagreements often turn nasty on on-line forums, maybe we have set a good example of how to do it ? Or maybe we have just bored everyone to death by now ?

I await your riposte with interest

[Buller_Scott]

If you really want a guideline for what I think is "excessive soot" then off the top of my head I would start with something along the lines of " A cloud of black soot with a volume of at least 1 cubic metre, clearly visible in daylight, persisting for more than 5 seconds in still air, produced by an engine that is at normal operating temperature."

In some ways I regard deliberately producing a large cloud of soot in front of some other vehicle as being the automotive equivalent of dropping your dacks and farting right in a stranger's face. Maybe that is why I (and others) dislike it so much (and why yet others seem to like doing it so much) ? Think about that for a moment (once you stop laughing)


It won't be too long before all new diesels will require DPFs (or some other efficient soot control mechanism) to pass emission requirements.



That is why I would prefer diesels have a lower profile than at present (the big picture view).

Not to chime in, but i would like to respond to a couple of things:

1. The 1 cubic meter of black cloud, as excessive, was interesting- i saw a gt tdi expel close to a cubic meter of soot the other day- the only difference between what i saw, and your above definition, was perhaps the color of the cloud.

2. Farting in a stranger's face is ENTERTAINING, not INSULTING. But yes, it's peculiar how some dislike it so much (having their faces farted in).

3. Amen to diesels staying OFF the radar. I am not Captain Planet, and i would hate the idea of a DPF on my little Polo.

Cheers,
Scott

[GoLfMan]

Not to worry, I have retained my perspective, albeit one that is somewhat different to yours. I'm pleased we are able to have a civilised debate, even if we can't agree. So often these types of disagreements often turn nasty on on-line forums, maybe we have set a good example of how to do it ? Or maybe we have just bored everyone to death by now ?

I await your riposte with interest

Im sure others have now fallen asleep after our somewhat long winded replies
fear not, I too am not getting emotionally involved, however I am enjoying the debate. Quite fun!

[gregozedobe]

1. ... i saw a gt tdi expel close to a cubic meter of soot the other day

Interesting. Given that AFAIK all GT TDIs come with a DPF as standard, I wonder what is going on there ? I would have thought it difficult (if not impossible) for a functioning DPF to produce a large cloud of soot. Unless perhaps it was doing a "regenerate" to burn off the accumulated soot in the DPF.

2. Farting in a stranger's face is ENTERTAINING, not INSULTING. But yes, it's peculiar how some dislike it so much (having their faces farted in).

That's your opinion, and it is probably shared by many onlookers, but not me or almost all recipients that are true strangers

May I suggest you not try to demonstrate the "entertainment" factor too often, as one day one of those strangers may instead select the "insult" option (despite your obvious good intentions) and demonstrate my point by reducing your capacity to enjoy driving your oiler to something approaching zero (either permanently by killing you; or temporarily by beating you to a pulp). Sort of like severe road rage, but without the protection of your lockable steel and glass cage that can whisk you away from danger whenever you choose.

3. Amen to diesels staying OFF the radar.

That is the point of my whole tirade. It is in all diesel enthusiasts interests to annoy as few people as possible, and then the positive message of how good diesels are can get through much better.

While people maintain an active dislike for diesels they can't listen to any of the good stories (less CO2, less fuel consumption, less frequent fill-ups, fun to drive without needing to drive hard, last forever, etc ).
.

[Greg Roles]

Geezuz! You guys need to get lives, outside ones!!

[Preen59]

Geezuz! You guys need to get lives, outside ones!!

Hahaha, me agrees.

[Jarred]

Woah fellas.

talk about getting off topic and too involved. You both could have just summarised with:

"I don't like soot" (for Greg}

and

"I enjoy sooting" (for Josh}

It'll probably turn out that you both think that the same (roughly] amount of soot is too much. (ie old hilux's not under load etc]

I personally don't mind seeing a new TDI giving a nice little soot cloud under hard acceleration. But bugger it off if it puff's like a warlord.. (chomping a cigar....]

I don't think it's particularily anti-social. most people wouldn't even take enough notice to get offended!

in conclusion, a little soot never hurt anyone..
"a little haze under acceleration"

[Buller_Scott]

It probably will turn out that our idea of what's "acceptable" will turn out to be pretty similar

In terms of the GT TDi, obviously everyone can recognize them by their stunning stock alloys and the rest of it (look better than a GTI in my humble), but what drew my attention was the fact that whereas with mine, in broad daylight, no smoke, this one produced enough out of the corner of my eye for me to turn around.

And as for humor resulting in a face full of fist- i cant stand the idea of someone kicking in my door panels. I'd much rather a punch in the face. I'm a snowboarder (Terrain park crash=you fall 5 meters out of the sky), and a former rugby tight head prop. Punch in the face vs. someone coming at my baby? Punch pls. (ooh yeah tough points!)

But do you guys reckon that the greater public see a slight plume of smoke out the back of a car as "offensively diesel", or rather, "there's something wrong with that new car's engine...."?

Cheers,
Scott

[gregozedobe]

talk about getting off topic .....

You could have just summarised with : "I don't like soot" (for Greg}

Given the title of the thread is "to smoke or not to smoke" I don't know how you can say the discussion wasn't absolutely "On Topic".

I'm sorry you have chosen to miss my main point entirely ie

" Excessive sooting (not just a little soot) gives diesels a bad rep with the general public. This is likely to lead to bad things for diesels (from the viewpoint of diesel enthusiasts). I cannot understand anyone wanting to do it deliberately. "

[Greg Roles]

Ummm....down the drag strip....absolutely!

Actually my first car, a beastly Mazda had a windscreen washer bottle that fed into the carb, and I could inject redex fuel cleaner straight into it. Made an absolute wall of smoke, impossible to see through.

Had a lot of fun with that ' back in the day '. Holy smokescreen Batman!

Probably a bad example to set for the 'young-ins' huh........

[gregozedobe]

Many people do stupid, irresponsible things when they were young. Some people then manage to grow up (slightly) !

(and yes, us Gregs can insult each other, without causing offence)

[gldgti]

well i disagree with you jarred, i think this topic is being explored better than almost every other ever posted, and goes to show that we have some of the most enthusiastic and thoughtful forum members in this section.

i think the 1 cubic meter idea is OK. seems to be a reasonalbe measure, and probably showm my tuned 1.9 to be a bit of an excessive smoker at the moment, whether i'm trying to do it or not... fact is, i have a turbo that needs about 2400rpm to get to 18psi and lean out hte mixture, and until then its smok'in.

so what do i get from this, as the OP? well i reckon that gregozedobe has expressed his opinions rather well and i think i'm going to make it my mission to "clean up" my little diesel's emissions even more (despite my getting 922.5km off the last tank) - even considering that i'm going to a larger, even laggier turbo soon.

[Buller_Scott]

Hey gldtdi,

How many liters is your tank, out of curiosity?

Cheers,
Scott