water / meth

[Preen59]

Hey Preen

If you do set one up can u take a picture of your switch that u use. I set one up on a 300td merc with a washer bottle that seemed very effective but is now leaking badly if I fill it up. I'm not sure of the meths ate away at the rubber and silicone.

I'd love to know what type of switch u will use and where you put it. Keep us in the loop.

Cory.

Those prices seem around right. I think the last 200lts I got delivered In Melbs was around that much. For you guys who don't want to by a bulk batch ask a bio deiseler if they will sell you some for your tests etc before u bite the bullet and by a large batch.


Meths need to be stored properly for longevity. Off the ground in a cool dry place in an air tight container.

If I can find some time to fix my leak or get a new bottle I will give u some before and after 100km times for the 300td. . But from ozbenz there as a guy that claimed -2 second off a 0 -100 km time. But then again he clocked his first one at 18.9 seconds to 100 from memory.


Thanks

Mark n

I'd love to have a look at your setup mate. Post some pics! (Please!)

Use Viton o-rings and seals if you can. Methanol dries normal rubber orings out. Nitro eats them away..

My general rule is the more it stings in a cut, the harder on seals it is. Haha.

We buy our methanol 200L at a time.. So I couldn't tell you what the price is @ 20L..

[gmx]

I've done a lot of reading on this subject too. Mostly from USA forums.

As well as Devil's Own, which you've linked, the other popular kits are from Snow Performance. They have kits specifically tailored for the VW 2.0 Turbo for example.

The guys are injecting the WM, typically in a ratio of 50/50 into the pipe between the intercooler (cold side) and throttle body. The already charged air combines with the WM injector to "atomize" the WM and evenly disperse it. It then helps to clean the intake area, and then mixes in the cylinder with the fuel and helps to increase the octane and at the same time lower combustion temps.

The consensus is that whilst it can be used with any tune, the REAL benefits come when using a more aggressive tune with more aggressive ignition/timing. So (in Australian terms), using 98 octane fuel with WMI whilst using a 104 octane ECU tune.

Several of the kits they've been using in the USA have a separate control unit which sits in or around the dash and allows you to turn the WMI on or off, adjust the flow rates etc. There are different methods for controlling when/how much WMI is used - from the turbo boost or from the accelerator position (I'm a bit foggy on this part of the topic, since it's been a few months).


As for what happens when it's not available. A few of the guys running it in the USA with this situation (104 octane maps on 98 octane fuel - in their language 100 on 93) have reported that they've forgottten to turn on the system and have driven around "normally" for miles and not had any issues. They point out that there is usually enough adaptability on the VW ECU mappings that as long as you aren't going WOT without the WMI running, you will be ok.

Snow has additional safety options available like boost controller bypass relays etc too.


I haven't looked yet where to get large quantities of methanol here, though I'm told than any "racing shop" should be able to get it. Maybe even hobby shops that sell "gas" powered RC cars/planes etc, as they also run on methanol (and other additives). In a bind, you can even use some windscreen washer fluid as many of them are largely methanol... though I'm not sure I like the sound of that suggestion.

As for going stale.... the guys in the USA buy in bulk and mix into a 10 gallon container which they store in a cool dry place. I haven't read anyone being worried about it going off whilst being stored. Though the stuff is very toxic, so you need to use gloves whilst handling it etc as it will irritate your skin.

When I've bought this topic up with an independent mechanic he said that he personally hates working on cars who've had this done because it stinks up the engine bay and makes working on the cars a hassle as the vapors can sting your eyes etc. He says that you can tell as soon as they drive into the workshop if they've got WMI! :/

Anyway - that's what I've learnt on the topic. Apart from using methanol in RC cars during my teenage years, I haven't got any further experience on this other than what I've learnt from reading.

I hope DeanCorp comes in and adds more information from his first-hand experience.

Oh, and Greg Roles also has some experience on this topic in the TDI space.

Most of what you said depends on where, the ratio and how much you choose to inject.
That would dictate if you are going for "octane boost" or IAT cooling or a even a direct combination (ie 4 nozzles in the runners and 1 at the cold pipe/IC exit).
Just because people are using 100PON files with it does not mean it's equal to that octane.
There are different variables involved in knock resistance, one of them is low IATs.
A higher octane file is usually just more aggressive ignition timing.

Let's say you inject after the TB throttle plate or even individually into the manifold runners. You will need to get tuned for it because you are richening up the mixture quite a bit especially if you plan on making any substantial power.
The closer you inject to the TB, the more you will need to keep an eye on your fuel trims (mostly at WOT). Large adaption values are never optimal.

FWIW, Snow & DO are pretty poor quality basic kits. I don't know if they stepped up their game and stopped using the crappy fittings they used to. But for me, Labonte is the go-to kit at the moment.

[Greg Roles]

Hmmmm, interesting I had not heard of them. Thanks for the info.

For what it is worth, my snow pump, solenoid and tank are identical to the Labonte units, and the nozzle and hose adaptor from Labonte are exactly the same as the Devils Own ones. The Snow jets weren't overly inspiring in comparison. Seems the "basic" kits have stepped up from your past experience.

[dave_r]

I'd only have to do what every else would need to do with their R, get a 104 octane flash put on

Yeah um that isn't the same. I wouldn't be doing it unless you can have the tune mapped to suit local fuel and the WMI in unison. No need to repeat what gmx mentioned.

We run 90%+ in the Dragster.. Smells GREAT! haha.

LOL yes it does but I wouldn't want to live with it in my daily!

[Corey_R]

Well, I'm sure the custom tune vs off the shelf tune comments are obvious even when you're not talking about WMI - the advantages and disadvantages of both have already been discussed elsewhere ad nauseum. But there are also local people running on tunes from the major companies... DeanCorp for example.

Speaking of which, I'm going to PM him and ask him to contribute to this thread since he has already been running this locally on a TFSI K04 engine and could really take much of the "guess work" out of this for people with Golf R's etc.

[dave_r]

I agree the differences are obvious but what we're talking about here is using an off the shelf tune (suited to a different purpose) as a substitute for an introduced variable. That to me sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Dean's car which I'm sure he'll confirm has been tweaked to suit his setup. Not upload and hope for the best?

[kaanage]

So the 219kW he posted at the Melb Dyno Day was not for a Giac map with an unmodified Pirelli?

[Corey_R]

Nope! When he says his car is stock, he means the engine internals and the turbo are stock

[gmx]

I can't find the thread but I had dynos of the same car with meth vs no meth on the same day and adaption redone for each run.

I forgot the ratio but he was spraying two nozzles (V6... B5 S4) about 15cm from the TB.
He actually made LESS power during spoolup but gained 30awhp after that point of inflection.
When tuned, he gained all over the powerband and made much more than 30awhp peak. This was a PJk04 in the vicinity of 420-470awhp on that particular dyno as far as I recall.

In short I would say if you choose not to get tuned for it, go for IAT cooling. And use a water bias ratio to assist in doing so. Or at the very least above 50%..

If I find that thread I'll post it here.
I also understand and acknowledge it uses an older ECU.

[kaanage]

Nope! When he says his car is stock, he means the engine internals and the turbo are stock

So if I were to fit a Nitrous injection kit to a car and had it tuned for it by company XYZ, I could show up to a dyno day and ..........

[Dyldo]

I've done a bit of googling, oggling, oogling, Wiki'ing and then found these dudes - Alcohol Injection Kits : Water Injection Systems : Water Methanol Injection : DevilsOwn Injection

There is a mad little youtube clip around the joint too.

[JustMark]

Hey preen

I've got some pics floating around somewhere. Basically the merc 300td has a kick down switch for the auto. Ive restricted flow to 300 cc a minute for the 3 lt engine. I used upto 50 %. Meths. Worked. Really good in the upper rev range but low down. It would bog down a bit.

How would u suggest I seal up the washer tank. It has a rubber insert that the pump pushes into. Its like a press fit. Is there any other sealant that is meth resistant that I could buy.

Cheers mate

[Rev 555]

Guys I am going to give it a go. I have decided on the Snow Performance Stage 3 kit as it seems to be one of the more popular options out there and not too expensive. I will document the build on a separate thread for 'educational' purposes.

[DeanB]

Whitey's Workshop in Merrylands (11 Fowler Rd Merrylands West - 9897 314 sells Methanol, was $225 for a 44 Gallon drum of the stuff. Have a few mates that buy through there - or at least did in January - for dragcars and sprintcars. They will sell smaller quantities as well Eg. 1 Litre.