water / meth

[tommymac]

Is anyone running it? If so how you liking it?

[sci_fianime]

wanted to but not sure where to source methanol...

anyway my water injection switch needs to be looked at

[Dyldo]

Did a search on water meth injection and all i got was this lousy post Was really surprised.

I've done a bit of googling, oggling, oogling, Wiki'ing and then found these dudes - Alcohol Injection Kits : Water Injection Systems : Water Methanol Injection : DevilsOwn Injection

There is a mad little youtube clip around the joint too.

anyway, wanted to dredge this up and see if anyone is running a WMI setup? If so, whats your thoughts?

I had a few curly queries.
- What happens to the tune and the air charge (and even the mapping) if or when the WM tank runs dry?
- Where does one get the right Meth to use? local meth lab is a bit dubious...
- Does Meth go stale like fuel, and therefore lose its RON?

[triode12]

Is anyone running it? If so how you liking it?

Deancorp is running it on his Pirelli.

[Corey_R]

I had a few curly queries.
- What happens to the tune and the air charge (and even the mapping) if or when the WM tank runs dry?
- Where does one get the right Meth to use? local meth lab is a bit dubious...
- Does Meth go stale like fuel, and therefore lose its RON?

I've done a lot of reading on this subject too. Mostly from USA forums.

As well as Devil's Own, which you've linked, the other popular kits are from Snow Performance. They have kits specifically tailored for the VW 2.0 Turbo for example.

The guys are injecting the WM, typically in a ratio of 50/50 into the pipe between the intercooler (cold side) and throttle body. The already charged air combines with the WM injector to "atomize" the WM and evenly disperse it. It then helps to clean the intake area, and then mixes in the cylinder with the fuel and helps to increase the octane and at the same time lower combustion temps.

The consensus is that whilst it can be used with any tune, the REAL benefits come when using a more aggressive tune with more aggressive ignition/timing. So (in Australian terms), using 98 octane fuel with WMI whilst using a 104 octane ECU tune.

Several of the kits they've been using in the USA have a separate control unit which sits in or around the dash and allows you to turn the WMI on or off, adjust the flow rates etc. There are different methods for controlling when/how much WMI is used - from the turbo boost or from the accelerator position (I'm a bit foggy on this part of the topic, since it's been a few months).


As for what happens when it's not available. A few of the guys running it in the USA with this situation (104 octane maps on 98 octane fuel - in their language 100 on 93) have reported that they've forgottten to turn on the system and have driven around "normally" for miles and not had any issues. They point out that there is usually enough adaptability on the VW ECU mappings that as long as you aren't going WOT without the WMI running, you will be ok.

Snow has additional safety options available like boost controller bypass relays etc too.


I haven't looked yet where to get large quantities of methanol here, though I'm told than any "racing shop" should be able to get it. Maybe even hobby shops that sell "gas" powered RC cars/planes etc, as they also run on methanol (and other additives). In a bind, you can even use some windscreen washer fluid as many of them are largely methanol... though I'm not sure I like the sound of that suggestion.

As for going stale.... the guys in the USA buy in bulk and mix into a 10 gallon container which they store in a cool dry place. I haven't read anyone being worried about it going off whilst being stored. Though the stuff is very toxic, so you need to use gloves whilst handling it etc as it will irritate your skin.

When I've bought this topic up with an independent mechanic he said that he personally hates working on cars who've had this done because it stinks up the engine bay and makes working on the cars a hassle as the vapors can sting your eyes etc. He says that you can tell as soon as they drive into the workshop if they've got WMI! :/

Anyway - that's what I've learnt on the topic. Apart from using methanol in RC cars during my teenage years, I haven't got any further experience on this other than what I've learnt from reading.

I hope DeanCorp comes in and adds more information from his first-hand experience.

Oh, and Greg Roles also has some experience on this topic in the TDI space.

[Greg Roles]

Once I buy some methanol I will be able to comment, all theory so far. I think Snow have the nicest controller, but their international customer service is friggen hopeless, they kept the jets and extras I sent back on their JRA process to swap the massive SUV ones for VW sized ones. Devils Own were super helpful, have nicer fittings, and they were wonderful to deal with. I have a Snow egt/boost controller and pump with Devils plumbing, beautiful silicon hose adaptor and jet. For performance you only need boost reference, so the cheaper controllers are fine.

[Preen59]

I'm thinking about trying it on the Mk1 Diesel with a throttle switch and a windscreen washer pump..

[Fab_R]

^ Thanks for the info Corey...
I too am interested in running WMI....

[Dyldo]

^ Thanks for the info Corey...
I too am interested in running WMI....

I'm quite surprised, given the interest in tuning and flashes (especially of so many R's of late) that more people aren't looking at WMI. Looks awesome to me (except for the smelly engine bay bit).

[Corey_R]

Yeah - I think it's just the difficulty in finding a verified source of information and local companies with experience in it.

Also, whilst I've got a Stage II+ car now, you open the engine bay and it still looks 100% stock (I still have the stock intake). As soon as you start adding WMI gear you start getting into the science experiment look (and smell apparently).

So it's nowhere near as convenient as the off-the-shelf bolt-on upgrades that many of us do!


Some info I forgot to mention. The guys that make their own mix use distilled/purified water, not just straight tap-water.

The Snow Performance kits range from US$319 to US$764, so the guys on international forums view this as one of the most high value cost-vs-performance upgrades that you can performed on a tuned car. The claims are that it's benefits far outweigh an intercooler upgrade, despite being far cheaper.


The USA guys also report fuel savings (in mpg) moderately higher than the amount of WM they're using, which seems logical as methanol is a fuel anyway, and lowering the combustion temps means the ECU doesn't need to throw as much fuel into the cylinder to control temps to begin with.

As for purchasing methanol in Australia, it appears it's quite a bit more expensive than in the USA (surprise surprise). Maybe it's just that I'm looking in the wrong places (motor racing related distributors), but these guys have it for $55 for 19L or $265 for 200L and is manufactured by Coogee Energy. Keep in mind you mix it with water at ~50:50 ratio, so even purchasing the 19L container will mean after you add water it's only about $1.41 per litre. If you purchased the 200L drum then it'd be only 66c per litre once mixed - but we really need DeanCorp's knowledge here for consumption and therefore whether it'd be worth acquiring a 200L drum!

[JustMark]

Hey Preen

If you do set one up can u take a picture of your switch that u use. I set one up on a 300td merc with a washer bottle that seemed very effective but is now leaking badly if I fill it up. I'm not sure of the meths ate away at the rubber and silicone.

I'd love to know what type of switch u will use and where you put it. Keep us in the loop.

Cory.

Those prices seem around right. I think the last 200lts I got delivered In Melbs was around that much. For you guys who don't want to by a bulk batch ask a bio deiseler if they will sell you some for your tests etc before u bite the bullet and by a large batch.


Meths need to be stored properly for longevity. Off the ground in a cool dry place in an air tight container.

If I can find some time to fix my leak or get a new bottle I will give u some before and after 100km times for the 300td. . But from ozbenz there as a guy that claimed -2 second off a 0 -100 km time. But then again he clocked his first one at 18.9 seconds to 100 from memory.


Thanks

Mark n

[ian]

I installed a Methylated spirits and water injection system on a HQ one ton cab chassis back in 1975 and i worked very well and kept the valves and plug like new ,so its not a new invention been around for years. And very simple to install .

[dave_r]

Have seen some evo's get good results with the water/meth injection. But you'll need to use a tuner on our cars that is capable of customising a tune. Counts out at least one here....you gonna switch teams Corey?

Apart from using methanol in RC cars during my teenage years, I haven't got any further experience on this other than what I've learnt from reading.

Yeah but the RC car stuff had 5-15% Nitro Methane in it? Farken stinks though, wouldn't want that near my car!

[Corey_R]

Yes, I'm sure it does cut out quite a few of the tuners here.

But there is no need for me to switch, because I'm already with a company who has several suitable tunes and have had cars running WMI for years in the USA
Even a few of their employees have done it on their personal Golf's. I'd only have to do what every else would need to do with their R, get a 104 octane flash put on etc, since R owners (and new S3 owners etc) can't have multiple maps selected via our cruise control stalk


Yeah, most RC fuel comes premixed with caster oil and Nitro. However, they used to stock non-pre-mixed stuff, as the guys who used to race in the .21 class cars etc would often use more specialty oils and 30% (or more) nitro.

[Preen59]

Yeah but the RC car stuff had 5-15% Nitro Methane in it? Farken stinks though, wouldn't want that near my car!

We run 90%+ in the Dragster.. Smells GREAT! haha.