is e10 from shell ok for mk3 golf

[Golf Loon]

Yeah I just changed to a TDI T4 and although its not thirsty, Diesel is spiralling.

Bring on the bio diesel moonshiners I say

[Preen59]

Hey Preen59,

You will need winter diesel out your way

Tell me about it. It's about 3 degrees outside at the moment. Haha, last year one of the guys from work was out west and filled up with summer fuel, middle of winter.

Monday morning his fuel line froze on the way to work!

[Preen59]

Yeah I just changed to a TDI T4 and although its not thirsty, Diesel is spiralling.

Bring on the bio diesel moonshiners I say

Not for us lucky common rail fellas, they need to figure out how to get it to lubricate under extreme pressure so we can get more than 250 k's out of a fuel pump!

[Manaz]

Ethanol has substantially less specific power than petrol. So for all the advantages of the higher octane and it's price, in the end you get less km per dollar out of it (or a mix of it) than you do out of straight petrol because there's simply less energy bound up in its chemical structure than there is in petrol.

Ethanol is not the big saviour people make it out to be.

There are some interesting developments in diesel however, including a new coal-to-gas-to-diesel refinery about to start up in Australia with an estimated production capacity (expandable) of 20,000 barrels a day (and there's *no* sulphur at all!). Hopefully this will take off and we'll start to see diesel prices drop again.

[The_Hawk]

BP have "renewable diesel", made from tallow or some other sources, which is chemically identical to diesel. The BS about "fewer greenhouse gases over its lifecycle" is because although the diesel is the same as normal diesel, they count the part where the tallow is growing and absorbing C02 as a positive benifit as apposed to digging up normal diesel and burning it.

The down side is that tallow is becoming more and more expensive because of demand making it borderline cost effective vs normal diesel for the oil companies. (The farmers (or more likely the middle men) are making more money).

The really sad part is that if the oil companies step up and do the farming themselves, the product could be much cheaper than normal diesel. But they are not "in the farming business". (Besides all that chances are they could sell the tallow raw and make more money from other oil companies). Sure I understand that everyone is trying to make the most money for their shareholders, but there is always talk of how "green" a company or product is. How much time, effort and money a company is putting into "environmentally sustainable initiavtives"... but you know who is paying for all this bull****? The consumer. Do you think ANY company is taking a hit on the bottom line to be kind to the environment? Or do you think the consumer is paying a little bit more to be "green"...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not pointing at BP or any one company in particular. Sure being green costs more, especially now, but with ever rising profits for the companies and every rising costs for the users, when will it stop?


Link to BP's Renewable Diesel for anyone who is interested:

http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9019280&contentId=7037544

[smithy010]

The farmers need all the help they can get at the moment.

On almost 8 straight years of no income, something has to go their way at some stage.

[Shteifen]

i used this stuff in my GL for a couple months from those United fuel stations. only really got it cos it was cheaper.

but noticed that fuel economy was a bit less. maybe 50km a tank?
so kinda defeated the point i think...
maybe shells or BP's is a better quality than that stuff, i dunno

my 2c

-steve

[hokenmk3]

Yo
I realise this thread hasn't been used for a while but my second cousin is a retired chemical engineer that used to work for Mobil and she said the only cars that can handle E10 are Toyotas and Fords built since 1976. The metal used in the valves in all other cars is not suitable for use with fuel that has that much alcohol in it.

Because it burns for longer, it is in contact with the exhaust valve stem for longer while it is still burning and will wear out non-Toyota and non-Ford valves very very quickly. This does not mean Toyota and Ford valves are better quality; it just means that the valves in all other makes of car are not suitable for E10 fuel.

I will have my 2 cents about oil at the same time... Castrol should never ever be used under any circumstances. It is fine if Castrol is the only oil that your car will ever have put in it ever again but even after flushing the oil system with diesel, there will still be some Castrol left in the engine. If any other brand of oil is used in the car it won't mix and it will cause problems. Go Fuchs for synthetic; or Valvoline or Penrite for mined.

Back to fuel: BP Ultimate and Mobil Synergy 8000 are true high octane fuels. All other fuels marketed as high octane fuel are regular fuel with an octane booster... this octane booster only has a 2 week shelf life which has already started before the fuel has even been delivered to the petrol station. By the time you fill with it it has already been mixed for 10 days and has only 4 days of shelf life left. After shelf life has expired, it loses its octane rating and burns dirty damaging your catalytic converter.

That's all I have to say about that. I hope lots of people read it.

[Shteifen]

Yo
I realise this thread hasn't been used for a while but my second cousin is a retired chemical engineer that used to work for Mobil and she said the only cars that can handle E10 are Toyotas and Fords built since 1976. The metal used in the valves in all other cars is not suitable for use with fuel that has that much alcohol in it.

Because it burns for longer, it is in contact with the exhaust valve stem for longer while it is still burning and will wear out non-Toyota and non-Ford valves very very quickly. This does not mean Toyota and Ford valves are better quality; it just means that the valves in all other makes of car are not suitable for E10 fuel.

I will have my 2 cents about oil at the same time... Castrol should never ever be used under any circumstances. It is fine if Castrol is the only oil that your car will ever have put in it ever again but even after flushing the oil system with diesel, there will still be some Castrol left in the engine. If any other brand of oil is used in the car it won't mix and it will cause problems. Go Fuchs for synthetic; or Valvoline or Penrite for mined.

Back to fuel: BP Ultimate and Mobil Synergy 8000 are true high octane fuels. All other fuels marketed as high octane fuel are regular fuel with an octane booster... this octane booster only has a 2 week shelf life which has already started before the fuel has even been delivered to the petrol station. By the time you fill with it it has already been mixed for 10 days and has only 4 days of shelf life left. After shelf life has expired, it loses its octane rating and burns dirty damaging your catalytic converter.

That's all I have to say about that. I hope lots of people read it.

got a few questions about all that

1. what exactly are the toyota and ford valves made of that is different from valves of every other engine that makes them able to take the e10 fuel?

2. whats wrong exactly with castrol oil? that seems a little strange to say as it is, from what i have learnt from volkswagen itself, a very advanced oil. plus thats what VW recommends these engines take, the new and newish ones atleast.
3. on the oil still, why would anyone be flushing their engine out with diesel to get rid of castrol oil?

4 id like a bit more information about this whole BP ultimate and mobil 8000 being the only "true" high octane fuels. what do you mean by ''true high octane fuels"? how do the other differ?

i hope BP ultimate really is a better fuel cos thats what i use ha!

thanks!
-steve

[hokenmk3]

got a few questions about all that

1. what exactly are the toyota and ford valves made of that is different from valves of every other engine that makes them able to take the e10 fuel?

2. whats wrong exactly with castrol oil? that seems a little strange to say as it is, from what i have learnt from volkswagen itself, a very advanced oil. plus thats what VW recommends these engines take, the new and newish ones atleast.
3. on the oil still, why would anyone be flushing their engine out with diesel to get rid of castrol oil?

4 id like a bit more information about this whole BP ultimate and mobil 8000 being the only "true" high octane fuels. what do you mean by ''true high octane fuels"? how do the other differ?

i hope BP ultimate really is a better fuel cos thats what i use ha!

thanks!
-steve

1. Ford and Toyota valve stems are made of a higher grade of steel. In 1976 Toyota developed the technology for 18RG and 2TG motors in Celicas. There were big court cases when Ford and Alfa copied the technology for the Cortina and GTV respectively. Toyota won the case and Ford and Alfa had to pay royalties to Toyota for the next 5 years. Since then, Toyota has continued using the technology because it is superior to other valve metals and costs a similar amount of money to produce. Ford and Alfa have kept using it too; after all they did end up paying big money for it! The e10 fuel burns for longer and is still burning when it leaves the head through the exhaust valves. Toyota hardened valve stem technology can handle the extra burn.

2. All Catrol oil adsorbs to metal, not only Magnetec! This is all well and good if Castrol oil is the only oil that is ever going to be used in the car but the benefits are greater to Castrol's marketing division than the actual benefit to the engine. Other oils won't mix with Castrol. The adsorbed layer of film that Castrol puts on the engine metals stays there and blocks other oils from coming in contact with the moving parts. This is bad.

3. After using Castrol, if you want to change to other oil, flushing the oil system with diesel and hand turning the crank with at least 3 flushes would clean off the adsorbed film layer. Valvoline is good oil... oils ain't oils! And Penrite is good oil for high viscosity arangements but not worth the extra cost. In my opinion, VWs should get Fuchs synthetic oil. I use Fuchs Super GTO Motorsport!

4. Fuel is chains of hydrocarbon 8 carbons long. The explosive power of fuel does not come from the carbon, it comes from the hydrogen attached to the carbon. Each carbon can bond to 4 other atoms, either carbon or hydrogen. The chain of 8 carbons can be in 3 different shapes:



The red Hs are too cramped and are not readily available to react with the oxygen coming into the engine when the fuel explodes. They react and burn after the explosion. True high octane fuel is further refined to have mostly line shaped hydrocarbons. Line shaped hydrocarbons are more explosive. BP Ultimate and Mobil Synergy 8000 is true high octane fuel. Other high octane fuel like Optimax and Vortex is regular (a near even mix of Ts and Xs) with an octane booster like Toluene or Xylene. The extra explosiveness in Toluene and Xylene comes from double bonds in rings of carbons... I don't feel like ASCII arting them but Wikipedia can give you good pictures. These rings take up more volume in the fuel so the explosive power per volume of fuel injected is not as good for octane boosted fuel as it is for true high octane fuel. Another set back is the shelf life of mixed octane boosters.

I had to do the chemistry lesson to expain the difference, there was no other way to descibe it. I hope it is a clear explanation.

I am an analytical chemist and my cousin who was a chemical engineer was in charge of quality control for imported aeroplane fuel for Mobil. She is now a Nuclear technician in Scotland!

[MattyT]

This is the only solid scientific explanation for Fuel Vs Fuel that i've ever read. You the man!

This also stands to my personal experience with a tank of Vortex this week. Limp wristed stuff (even if it does from the same refinery as Ultimate here in WA).

[gldgti]

hokenmk3 - thanks for your explanations - i would press further about valve stems however:

once the 5 year royalties on toyota's new valve stem alloy had run their course, who is to say that other manufacturers didnt pick up similar compositions and run with it - or further, in the 30+years since then, why would other manufacturers have not changed their valve alloys to suit high-alcohol fuels anyway (with their own research)?

i argue this particularly with reference to vw - look to VW brazil - they pioneered 100% ethanol vehicles from the factory. most every otto cycle engined vw sold in brazil is capable of running on any proportion blend of ethanol/petrol. i would postulate that VW would have adjusted the valve alloy's many, many years ago (and worldwide) to accommodate the use of ehtanol in vw engines. another manufacturer that comes to mind is SAAB (a long time advocate of ethanol engines).

true - i present no hard evidence to say that vw valves are OK for use with alcohol fuels - but knowing vw's history of green aspirations, i would personally (and do) take it as implicit that the metallurgy of the head components in VW engines is OK.

add to that VW have always let the field in diesel engine technology and its associated problems (high exhaust valve temperatures in turbocharged diesels) and i'd think vw know a thing or two about valve metallurgy.....

[Shifter]

2. All Catrol oil adsorbs to metal, not only Magnetec! This is all well and good if Castrol oil is the only oil that is ever going to be used in the car but the benefits are greater to Castrol's marketing division than the actual benefit to the engine. Other oils won't mix with Castrol. The adsorbed layer of film that Castrol puts on the engine metals stays there and blocks other oils from coming in contact with the moving parts. This is bad.

3. After using Castrol, if you want to change to other oil, flushing the oil system with diesel and hand turning the crank with at least 3 flushes would clean off the adsorbed film layer. Valvoline is good oil... oils ain't oils! And Penrite is good oil for high viscosity arangements but not worth the extra cost. In my opinion, VWs should get Fuchs synthetic oil. I use Fuchs Super GTO Motorsport!

I'm not sure I understand the comment above regarding Castrol Oil and absorbsion of metal> I have used huge quanties of Castrol oil in various applications and have never known there to any trouble if the oil was changed out with another brand, with no flushing. I'm talking of dry sumps of 35 - 60 tonnes of oil. Castrol, these days is owned by BP and uses BP base stock for its oil, it never had it's own base stock but bought in and added a cocktail of additives to make it do what ever they wanted it to do. Oils ain't oils, is very true but as far as Castrol go and Vw's I do believe they, both Castrol and VW, know what they are doing. The Castrol SLX LL111 is a very good quality sythetic oil and designed primaraly for modern turbo charged diesel engines fitted with DPF's, and not only VW's.