Biodiesel and your new TDI.

[Ozram]

So that means that nobody has an engine running ridiculous fuel pressures and therefore it's not as critical. (I however will not be running Bio in my Caddy until it is out of warranty and i can be sure it's 100% safe).

The fuel pressure has no relevance. The fact is the tolerances are a lot closer than in older systems, therefore they grind to a halt quicker.

[Preen59]

Bio diesel is as bad for PD injection as for common rail.

My understanding was that PD could tolerate it moreso than common rail because one of the issues was that bio diesel cannot lubricate sufficiently under extreme pressure, therefore the common rail systems would fail?

(Question, not statement)

The new Mk6 is common rail.

I run the PD system in my Caddy. I will still not put bio anywhere near it, primarily because I know what it can do to the newer injection systems and I know how much they cost to fix.

If the manufacturer says only 5% and actually puts a sticker on the fuel flap saying "no bio" and you still want to use it then you are asking for trouble IMHO.

Like i said i won't be letting bio in my tank any time soon...

[Transporter]

Actually pressure in the PD injection system is higher than in the common rail fuel system. Lately piezo injectors for common rail are closer in the pressure to PD system know.

[gldgti]

all this is good discussion, but the question still begs - If all this is true, why are VW's Bio-friendly in the EU?

I postulate that VW certainly do not have different engine components in the euro sold cars. I think its all down to adhereing to fuel standards, rather than some fault or incompatibility between the technology and the fuel itself.

[gldgti]

I need a bit more prove than one member here and there to experimenting with his car before I would use biodiesel.

Something like driving 200,000km using the biodiesel only and under different driving conditions in different climates on more than just one car, than

after that 200,000km dismantle the engine and check the wear on the components and compare to the one driven on the petroleum diesel.

20 engines in the testing like that could give some reasonably accurate data.

But the problem is that the quality of the diesel fuel is not guaranteed, so even such test wouldn’t be accurate.

P.S. Buying biodiesel instead petro diesel when there is not saving (actualy the engine is using more of it) is non sence.
Any car fitted with DPF cannot use biodiesel anyway.

Transporter, please justify some of your claims here.

1) why can a diesel car fitted with a DPF not use biodiesel? it is true that the "regeneration mode" may not work effectively.... nor will the 50% less soot from using biodiesel clog up the DPF so much as normal diesel.

2) it is well known that bio-diesel has been used consistently, over a long peroid of time, and in many climates, in different vehicles, for many years. It is only in Australia that we have so little experience with this fuel. I will concede taht the use of bio-diesel in modern common rail and PD injection systems may not be so well documented, because of their relatively short exposure to th world. many new diesels arent yet out of warranty and many owners have been scared out of using bio diesel.

To others -

It is not sensible to postulate about why bio-diesel "cannot" be used in your vehicle unless you are actually testing it. I'm sure that with some research (particularly with reference to he US, Canada and Europe) that you will find evidence of the successful use of bio-diesel in new diesel cars. - even to the point of VW sponsored racing endeavours with 100% biodiesel vehicles.

what i'm saying is that UNLESS your opinion is based on hard evidence, don't post it as implied fact.

all of the above is meant in the most friendly and informative mannor

[Ozram]

To others -

It is not sensible to postulate about why bio-diesel "cannot" be used in your vehicle unless you are actually testing it. I'm sure that with some research (particularly with reference to he US, Canada and Europe) that you will find evidence of the successful use of bio-diesel in new diesel cars. - even to the point of VW sponsored racing endeavours with 100% biodiesel vehicles.

what i'm saying is that UNLESS your opinion is based on hard evidence, don't post it as implied fact.

all of the above is meant in the most friendly and informative mannor

I don't think anyone has said you cannot use it. I think people are capable of making up their own minds. There is an Australian standard for bio-diesel, but there seems to be some people who will buy used cooking oil from restaurants and make their own. Quality is the major issue here in Australia.

I see lots of expensive contaminated diesel injection systems where I work. I think that very often the consumer is left out of pocket because he genuinely thinks he is doing the right thing for the environment by using alternate fuels. Its only when he is told that he has voided his warranty and has a $10,000 bill that his service station doesn't want to know about, that he finds himself up the proverbial creek.

As I said in an earlier post, I am not against bio-fuels, for the future. I can't say what equipment is used for bio-fuels in Europe or elsewhere as I don't have access to the vehicles, all I see is what is happening in Oz.

In Australia, Bosch and all the other diesel fuel injection equipment manufacturers state that more than 5% alternate fuel in systems will void the warranty. Various car manufacturers have warning stickers fitted on cars against the use of Bio.

At the end of the day everyone is free to use whatever they want in their own vehicle. I just think that people should be careful whilst the vehicle is still under warranty.

On the other hand, my boss owns a diesel fuel injection repair shop and he says that you should all fill up with the cheapest, no-name brand concoction. Preferably out of rusty 205 litre drums

[Transporter]

Transporter, please justify some of your claims here.

1) why can a diesel car fitted with a DPF not use biodiesel? it is true that the "regeneration mode" may not work effectively.... nor will the 50% less soot from using biodiesel clog up the DPF so much as normal diesel.

2) it is well known that bio-diesel has been used consistently, over a long peroid of time, and in many climates, in different vehicles, for many years. It is only in Australia that we have so little experience with this fuel. I will concede taht the use of bio-diesel in modern common rail and PD injection systems may not be so well documented, because of their relatively short exposure to th world. many new diesels arent yet out of warranty and many owners have been scared out of using bio diesel.

To others -

It is not sensible to postulate about why bio-diesel "cannot" be used in your vehicle unless you are actually testing it. I'm sure that with some research (particularly with reference to he US, Canada and Europe) that you will find evidence of the successful use of bio-diesel in new diesel cars. - even to the point of VW sponsored racing endeavours with 100% biodiesel vehicles.

what i'm saying is that UNLESS your opinion is based on hard evidence, don't post it as implied fact.

all of the above is meant in the most friendly and informative mannor

My opinion is based on being a diesel mechanic for almost 30 years.
I’m not interested in hearing from biodiesel forums or other biodiesel fans; that they’ve tried biodiesel in their cars and that it was “OK”
Even if hundreds of people use bio-diesel in their cars for several years, that’s not enough time to see the long-term adverse effect on the engine.
The obvious short-term adverse effects being inconvenience in getting to a station with bio-diesel, no saving when using it since it is not cheaper, increased fuel consumption, and you’re required to halve the service/replacement interval for the fuel filter and the engine oil. So what then are the advantages of bio-diesel - when the aforementioned effects of bio-diesel (increased fuel consumption, more oil, more filters etc.) don’t exactly fit in with being environmentally friendly?
And to others, if you value somebody's amateur experimenting with home brew bio diesel more than the advice of VW who have a proper way of testing the impact of biodiesel on the modern diesel engine (especially the ones fitted with DPF), then that’s your prerogative; and I can assure that after just one tank of bad fuel and the cost associated with repairing the damage you’ll never want to here the word “biodiesel”.

One from biodiesel fans

http://dieselgreenfuels.com/blog/2009/05/15/a-warning-about-2008-and-newer-vehicles-using-biodiesel-and-a-call-to-action/

and another

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4311498.html

http://biodieselsmarter.com/archives/2008/12/the_saga_of_the_09_tdi_and_its.php

P.S. You cannot request hard evidence if you don’t base your argument on hard evidence. Nowhere in your argument have you referenced any data from any form of literature whatsoever. My information is a simple warning to others in concordance with VW, and is based on my experience as a mechanic, from having seeing the effects of bio-diesel on the engine first-hand, such as increased fuel consumption and the need to replace parts more often. I’m not advising people not to use bio-diesel, just writing about some of its potential consequences.

[Transporter]

On the other hand, my boss owns a diesel fuel injection repair shop and he says that you should all fill up with the cheapest, no-name brand concoction. Preferably out of rusty 205 litre drums

[gldgti]

P.S. You cannot request hard evidence if you don’t base your argument on hard evidence. Nowhere in your argument have you referenced any data from any form of literature whatsoever. My information is a simple warning to others in concordance with VW, and is based on my experience as a mechanic, from having seeing the effects of bio-diesel on the engine first-hand, such as increased fuel consumption and the need to replace parts more often. I’m not advising people not to use bio-diesel, just writing about some of its potential consequences.

Ahhh ha.

Where do i come from? I'm a mechanical engineer and car enthusiast.... I've always owned a diesel car and in the last 18 months i've run my mk3 turbo-diesel for 70,000km on 100% pump biodiesel. I have changed the fuel filter once in that time, change the oil every 6-7000km and have no evidence to suggest that this is inadequate. Infact, i would dispute your claim that you need to change the oil more frequently using biodiesel - its use produces less soot, and a well functioning injection system should not comtaminate the engine oil.

My father has been using 100% biodiesel (home-made) in a mk1 GLD and a mecedes 240D for 150,000km in the former case and 50,000km in the latter case. He claims over the time he's used Bio, the only disadvantages have been very cold winter morning starts (cured by fuel heater), and the fact he's had to replace the 30-yo pump seals with newer synthetic rubber components. I have yet to suffer any such disadvantage with my 1994 vehicle.

I certainly sympathise with those people who try a batch of bio and then end up with a big and expensive problem - but we both acknowledge that bio-diesel quality can be variable, and as such it is unsurprising that these kinds of incidents happen. I propose that as usual, the bad news is always far better publicised than the good, and that these cases occur in the minority.

Further - it is scientific FACT that biodiesel is, as a chemical, an effective cleaner and solvent for petrochemical deposits, and as such, gummy deposits formed by years of dino-diesel use are almost ALWAYS stripped out of the fuel system of a vehicle that begins using bio-diesel, and as such its that "first tank" syndrome of failure. It is not fair to put the failure of a fuel system due to ingestion or blockage by general garbage, on a perfectly good fuel that has cleaned (in an in-opportume manner) the fuel system. Am i saying this out of heresay? Not at all - In the 5 diesel vehicles that my father and i have run on biodiesel, we have witnessed this in every one. THe first month or so of operation sees a multitude of gunk come out of the system, until finally the system is clean and free of deposits and normal, trouble free operation is allowed.

I fail to see, how utilising a fuel with higher lubricity, cleaner and smoother burn and higher oxygen content could negatively impact on engine wear. In every diesel vehicle i have ever run on bio-diesel, i have always been able to observe a smoother running and slightly cooler running engine.

since its late, and i need to go to bed, i wont find any links for you to read up on... but if you google "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank", you will find links to a very good book written Joshua Tickell. I hope that just because "you arent interested" in the work of simple minded forum users "backyard experiements", that you will be able to take on board and perhaps consider that i might have some idea about this stuff.

One more thing - VW are far more likely to warn against using biodiesle in australia, not because they have tested it and don't think you should use it, but because they dont want to pay for all the repairs on vehicles that have been subjected to the things we have already spoken about.

for now, peace out.

[Transporter]

Ahhh ha.

Where do i come from? I'm a mechanical engineer and car enthusiast.... I've always owned a diesel car and in the last 18 months i've run my mk3 turbo-diesel for 70,000km on 100% pump biodiesel. I have changed the fuel filter once in that time, change the oil every 6-7000km and have no evidence to suggest that this is inadequate. Infact, i would dispute your claim that you need to change the oil more frequently using biodiesel - its use produces less soot, and a well functioning injection system should not comtaminate the engine oil.

My father has been using 100% biodiesel (home-made) in a mk1 GLD and a mecedes 240D for 150,000km in the former case and 50,000km in the latter case. He claims over the time he's used Bio, the only disadvantages have been very cold winter morning starts (cured by fuel heater), and the fact he's had to replace the 30-yo pump seals with newer synthetic rubber components. I have yet to suffer any such disadvantage with my 1994 vehicle.

I certainly sympathise with those people who try a batch of bio and then end up with a big and expensive problem - but we both acknowledge that bio-diesel quality can be variable, and as such it is unsurprising that these kinds of incidents happen. I propose that as usual, the bad news is always far better publicised than the good, and that these cases occur in the minority.

Further - it is scientific FACT that biodiesel is, as a chemical, an effective cleaner and solvent for petrochemical deposits, and as such, gummy deposits formed by years of dino-diesel use are almost ALWAYS stripped out of the fuel system of a vehicle that begins using bio-diesel, and as such its that "first tank" syndrome of failure. It is not fair to put the failure of a fuel system due to ingestion or blockage by general garbage, on a perfectly good fuel that has cleaned (in an in-opportume manner) the fuel system. Am i saying this out of heresay? Not at all - In the 5 diesel vehicles that my father and i have run on biodiesel, we have witnessed this in every one. THe first month or so of operation sees a multitude of gunk come out of the system, until finally the system is clean and free of deposits and normal, trouble free operation is allowed.

I fail to see, how utilising a fuel with higher lubricity, cleaner and smoother burn and higher oxygen content could negatively impact on engine wear. In every diesel vehicle i have ever run on bio-diesel, i have always been able to observe a smoother running and slightly cooler running engine.

since its late, and i need to go to bed, i wont find any links for you to read up on... but if you google "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank", you will find links to a very good book written Joshua Tickell. I hope that just because "you arent interested" in the work of simple minded forum users "backyard experiements", that you will be able to take on board and perhaps consider that i might have some idea about this stuff.

One more thing - VW are far more likely to warn against using biodiesle in australia, not because they have tested it and don't think you should use it, but because they dont want to pay for all the repairs on vehicles that have been subjected to the things we have already spoken about.

for now, peace out.

You're missing one thing here:
I never said don't use biodiesel in any diesel engine.

How about you buy Golf6 TDI and start using biodiesel and we will see if you make it to 160,000km, how is that for proof that biodiesel is safe to use in modern diesel engine.

If I had Golf Mark1 or Mark3 I would be using biodiesel as well if I coud buy it cheap.

[gldgti]

You're missing one thing here:
I never said don't use biodiesel in any diesel engine.

How about you buy Golf6 TDI and start using biodiesel and we will see if you make it to 160,000km, how is that for proof that biodiesel is safe to use in modern diesel engine.

If I had Golf Mark1 or Mark3 I would be using biodiesel as well if I coud buy it cheap.

your right, ofcourse....

in 10 years, i'll buy a mk6 tdi and tell you its all good

[Transporter]

your right, ofcourse....

in 10 years, i'll buy a mk6 tdi and tell you its all good

Sorry mate, I don't know what's your point here.

The original topic was "Biodiesel and your new TDI"

I never argued that you couldn’t use biodiesel in old diesel engines.

You obviously didn't check the links I posted.

http://biodieselsmarter.com/archives/2008/12/the_saga_of_the_09_tdi_and_its.php

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4311498.html

[Greg Roles]

I'm no diesel mechanic, well not qualified anyhow, but I do look forward to putting my chemistry degree to actual use making my own. If your quality control and testing is good enough, I can't see a problem. Set the car up to suit, and giddyup. Don't give a rats about the "debate", it's something I'm doing in my future. For now, while the car is financed and I need it for daily work, I'll keep paying the oil companies, but in a few years time when all that changes, well the tinkering, shall indeed continue down the Bio path.

I'd much rather take the risk and see for myself than sit on the fence and talk. In all things!

[gldgti]

Sorry mate, I don't know what's your point here.

The original topic was "Biodiesel and your new TDI"

I never argued that you couldn’t use biodiesel in old diesel engines.

You obviously didn't check the links I posted.

http://biodieselsmarter.com/archives/2008/12/the_saga_of_the_09_tdi_and_its.php

http://www.popularmechanics.com/auto...o/4311498.html

i ought to have made a longer post.

In 10 years, i'll buy a mk6 tdi and do 160,000km in it on biodiesel, and then we'll see if its alright.

believe me mate, i'm not trying to have an argument with you on this - i think we both understand the technicalities - but i don't like seeing a one sided view posted up without anyone else chiming in with information that will help balance out what people are reading. now, given i have a fair amount of experience with biodiesel, (more than anyone else i have spoken to in person, bar my dad) then i guess i'm qualified to take on some of the more "anti biodiesel sentiment" examples that you put forward, such as service intervals for oil filters and such.

if you don't like what i have to say, but can't find fault with it technically, don't reply.

having said all that - thankyou for posting those links. good reading and very informative. What interests me (but is unrelated to this topic) is that problems running biodiesel stem from emissions systems set up to deal with mineral diesel use.

at the end of the day, i guess the conclusion is this (and correct me if you disagree): 'Biodiesel use is not recommended in an unmodified new tdi, due to the fact that the injection system controls and emissions controls are unsuited to dealing with the different physical proeprties of biodiesel, when compared with mineral diesel.'

[phaeton]

B5 is 100% ok as VW use it in the current 2009 Jetta TDI Cup races in the US and VW of America & Canada also ok 5% Biodiesel in the new CR TDI.

http://www.tdicurious.ca/tag/faq/#a21

http://www.tdicurious.ca/2008/11/b5-%E2%80%93-what-is-it/

(Official VW Canada TDI Blog)

http://tdi.vw.com/jetta-tdi-cup-worlds-1st-biodiesel-powered-race-series/

At this stage though other markets (except Germany) have not been okayed due to no standards being set.

I remember watching the release of the Jetta Clean Diesel on youtube and one of the Diesel Experts was talking about a Biodiesel plant opening in the US fairly soon; so quite possibly VW may increase Biodiesel content in future US products.