Iso Fix Child seats

[GTR27]

Incorrectly fitted seats are far worse than ISOFIX without top tether. Its very easy to incorrectly fit car seats without ISOFIX. You cannot incorrectly fit an ISOFIX seat, it's either in or its not (i.e. you would have to just sit it on the seat, unrestrained). ISOFIX performs better in side impact, and slightly worse in front impact (as more force is transmitted through the seat). I did lots of reading/research on it before purchase. Top tether makes a marginal difference (<10% in most cases) but correct fitment makes a VERY large difference to crash results. (and I have read that ~88% of car seats installed in australia are INCORRECTLY installed) We take our seats in and out all the time, which is a pain in the arse with normal seats, but a breeze with ISOFIX.

I understand and accept you can get a fine for incorrect seats (few points and few hundred $$$) - but honestly I dont care. I know that the seats I bought are better than any of the seats in the same price range I could have gotten in australia. Not to mention I think they would pick my tint before kid seats. It's an inconspicuous family wagon and I dont drive like a flog. The chances of the police checking the seats is so miniscule that its not worth worrying about. I even asked 2 mates who are coppers, and the only time they check seats is if the driver is being an ********. So if you dont have an attitude talking to the cops, you'll be fine.


Obviously this is a choice that each person has to weigh up, but search and read about the facts on both sides before making an informed decision.

[Dutch77]

I never argued against ISOFIX, but it's worth letting people know the risks of buying overseas on the legals - I've known plenty of people with seats checked, not to mention a post accident investigation.

In Victoria the seat fitment needs to be certified so I don't really have a choice either. In SA it was still free choice whether to fit yourself or use a registered fitter.

As for pricing, at the time of shopping when the dollar was overvalued I still wouldn't have made a big enough saving on any I looked at to warrant the problems with an overseas purchase. I did consider the Recaro option as the local importer obviously can't legally sell them. Where pricing is close I always buy local bricks n mortar - this country is stuffed enough for my kid today let alone when they are out in the real world down the track.

Wasn't having a go at your choices, just making sure people know the most critical facts on what is an important choice.

[woofy]

First I have heard seats need to be done by a fitter in Vic, it was always an option. It's up to anyone what they do, the police aren't the concern. If your kids are in an overseas seat and something bad happens, some serious charges get laid. I wouldn't want to find out what insurers will try and get out of either.

[GTR27]

So these 'serious legal issues' from an imported seat. Surely you could provide a link to someone charged with something relating to an imported seat?

I have not ever heard of anyone being charged, even in an accident. I've even heard of insurers replacing ISOFIX seats that were imported. All they can realistically charge you with is whatever the fine is for incorrect seats (few points and a few hundred dollars). They would have to prove you were negligent in choosing that seat (which you can prove is safe in other countries, along with the statistics for incorrect seat fitment) to charge you with anything else.

Understand there are some consequences, but gee, making it like you'll have done horrible 'legal' consequences is a bit if a stretch (aside from the few point plus fine)

[Flea]

Sounds like you're more worried about the police than the safety of your children. ADR and Australian Quality Standards are there for a reason. Just go and buy a seat that is approved and stop compromising the safety of your children.

[JustCruisn]

So these 'serious legal issues' from an imported seat. Surely you could provide a link to someone charged with something relating to an imported seat?

I have not ever heard of anyone being charged, even in an accident. I've even heard of insurers replacing ISOFIX seats that were imported. All they can realistically charge you with is whatever the fine is for incorrect seats (few points and a few hundred dollars). They would have to prove you were negligent in choosing that seat (which you can prove is safe in other countries, along with the statistics for incorrect seat fitment) to charge you with anything else.

Understand there are some consequences, but gee, making it like you'll have done horrible 'legal' consequences is a bit if a stretch (aside from the few point plus fine)

Try a CTP claim for an injured child in a non approved seat. Insurer will simply decline. They may state that the seat attributed to the injury, it is up to you to find an expert to argue otherwise.
I spent $60K on legals for a simple rear end accident with whiplash, took 4 years to settle. A fairly simple claim, fault was very clear nothing complicated at all. The guy that ran into me got a charged with reckless driving and did not contest it, insurer paid demand for property damage without challenge, but the CTP part was a much longer fight.
The CTP insurer will use anything at all to not pay, they will even make **** up. It is up to your lawyer to convince them to pay, yes I work for a CTP insurer.

[brad]

ADR and Australian Quality Standards are there for a reason. .

But that reason isn't necessarily to achieve the highest standards of quality or safety. It's to provide a consistent & quantifiable measure.

It's well known that certain ADRs have lagged behind worlds best practice because local manufacturers were unable to meet world standards. The manufacturers put direct pressure on the government bodies to hold back minimum standards of technology so that capital investment wasn't required at a local level.

You'll notice that as Australia abandons local manufacture the ADRs are being re-written to say "must comply with these international standards" rather than a self-prescribed standard.

[The_Hawk]

No doubt ISOFIX are easier to move in and out, but then once you know to correctly fit a normal seat it's really not hard either and I'd guess that *most* people don't move their seats too often anyway. It's easy enough to learn how to do it correctly if that's your concern (and probably quicker and easier than importing an illegal seat).

There are plenty of stories I've heard over the years of people importing car seat (and motor bike helmets too) from overseas either at significantly lower price or because they prefer a brand and/or think it's safer (In the case of Helmets some claim it's from the same factory but without the AUS sticker). I don't personally know of anyone who has been caught and fined. I'd also say that 99% of people will not be involved in a serious accident where it matters... But then do you really want to find out that seat isn't quite up to scratch?

Of course the same can be said for plenty of other questionably legal parts that plenty of us choose to use. While our opinion and research into safety might be top notch and supported by other countries they still aren't legal in Australia (sadly in many cases).

[muli]

But that reason isn't necessarily to achieve the highest standards of quality or safety. It's to provide a consistent & quantifiable measure.

It's well known that certain ADRs have lagged behind worlds best practice because local manufacturers were unable to meet world standards. The manufacturers put direct pressure on the government bodies to hold back minimum standards of technology so that capital investment wasn't required at a local level.

You'll notice that as Australia abandons local manufacture the ADRs are being re-written to say "must comply with these international standards" rather than a self-prescribed standard.

I thought there was something on the news few months back about ISOFIX seats and government doing a review of ADR/standards to open up more options to people?

[spud75]

Firstly, unless the seat has the actual AUS/NZ standards sticker, then it is illegal to use the seat in Australia.

There are no exceptions.

Now for the stupid bit. NZ allows seats to be imported in to NZ that uses the same design rules, provided they comply with the standard. Now, if you use that seat in NZ, no worries. If you then bring that same seat that complies over to Australia, then it does not comply and is illegal. So a NZ resident who has been using a legal seat for years that complies with the AUS/NZ standard, goes on a holiday and brings the seat over, it is now illegal.

Holden have done some internal testing with overseas ISOfix seats and local seats and found that ISOfix seats have better protection. They did this when they started fitting ISOfix fittings to the common-dore.

As far as CTP, we are now left with the decision of, do I put a compliant seat in, that may not offer the same protection, so when my child does get injured I can get CTP insurance, or do I put a possibly safer seat in, and prevent injury in the first place.....???? Personally, I would rather my child did not get injured in the first place.

As far a ISOfix seats, some have hard fixed ISOfix fittings, and some have flexible.

Have a look at

https://us.diono.com/convertible-to-booster/rainier

ISOfix/LATCH with top tether. This seat is still illegal in Australia.

This seat is NCAP tested. It also supports newborn rear-facing up to forward facing up to 30kg with 5 point harness. This means you can prevent submarining with a much safer harness for much older children.

It is still illegal in Australia.

Points to note. AUS has only just said that forward facing can extend passed 6 months old. Sorry but a frontal accident, a 6 months old cannot support their neck to prevent injury. Sweeden recommend rear facing up to 4 years.

Aus recommend a booster seat for age 4 onwards. A 4 year old cannot prevent submarining. Seat compatibility should be on height and weight, not age.

It is a precarious world out there and the AUS design regs say they are the best in world, but they are also protecting Australian businesses. Local manufacturers have no pressure to build ISOfix as the international companies importing into Australia couldnt be bothered testing seats to comply for the size of our market. As such the options for ISOfix will always be limited. Until our MP's have young children/babies and go to buy a car seat, there will be no change.

[brad]

nailed it Mr Spud.

We have a couple of politicians (or ex-politicians, or potential politicians - I still can't work it out) in our street. They live on another planet. They would simply send the "helper" to buy the seat without researching.

[woofy]

It's too late for me now (4yr old and 7yr old) but I would really liked to have seen the option to put a rear facing seat in the front passenger seat as well. Helps for long term rear facing. Waited years for ISOFIX and it came pretty much too late for us. Still would like it for the 4-7/8 yr old range though. My girls are tall so likely they will grow out before they bring in seats that go older like they are still talking about.

[bobski]

I liked the idea of isofix's convenience. But not being covered or potentially pursued by the law in the event of an accident was a deterrent enough to just buy the best quality legal seat I could find. You have to place trust the system to a certain extent. I think if I was unlucky enough to have an accident and my kids ended up permanently injured or whatever, at least I'm insured to cover their care. I took great care to install the seats correctly (at first installed professionally), check them every time we strap in and they don't get moved from vehicle to vehicle.

There needs to be some sanity in this realm though. For something as important as this, you shouldn't need any research to ensure you are choosing wisely. It should be right there on the box.

[n0mad]

thanks for the replies, was a little more debate than i anticipated but good to hear all points of view. I think for piece of mind i'll buy locally. I might just wait for a sale as i'm in no rush.

i did see a youtube vid which mentioned you should check to ensure it's a good fit first but considering the posts in the thread i don't think it will matter if i just buy one when they're on sale.

[spud75]

I liked the idea of isofix's convenience. But not being covered or potentially pursued by the law in the event of an accident was a deterrent enough to just buy the best quality legal seat I could find. You have to place trust the system to a certain extent. I think if I was unlucky enough to have an accident and my kids ended up permanently injured or whatever, at least I'm insured to cover their care. I took great care to install the seats correctly (at first installed professionally), check them every time we strap in and they don't get moved from vehicle to vehicle.

There needs to be some sanity in this realm though. For something as important as this, you shouldn't need any research to ensure you are choosing wisely. It should be right there on the box.

I had someone sit in the middle seat and they unclipped the child seat when they unbuckled. Un be known to me or anyone else. Strapped child in and did another trip. Tell me, you lean over and check the buckle on the car buckle everytime you put your child in the seat. Me thinks not.

One more vote for isofix........