Wheels Magazine Petition - Raise the speed limit and lower the toll

[VWindahouse]

He slowed down in those sections

[BluChris]

Heard him interviewed. Not only did he do this but he admitted there were plenty of sections where a 130 limit would not be appropriate even by his own standards. Great publicity for a mag with falling sales but not a hugely meaningful exercise

[team_v]

The worst part is that we get a road upgrade (dual split 4-lane highway to the gold coast) or new infrastructure (like all the tunnels here in Brisbane) and they keep the old speed limit or give you a low limit on new infrastructure.

The other problem isee is the variation in speed limits for what is essentially the same road.
You can have a road that goes from 60-70-80 with no variation in the surface or number of lanes.

[gldgti]

You can have a road that goes from 60-70-80 with no variation in the surface or number of lanes.

Particularly up where you are, I think this is a function of trying to reduce noise from roads that pass through built up areas. The faster the traffic, the noisier it is.

I've often noticed this a lot from south of the tweed region to brisbane. Less so in Sydney, but true of some areas certainly.

I live in a pretty quiet area but with a busy 2 lane road about 300m away, and on saturday mornings when the traffic is busiest but its congested so that everyone is only manageing about 40km/h, its much quieter than at night when there are less cars but they are doing 70km/h (its a 60 zone)

[Ideo]

Heard him interviewed. Not only did he do this but he admitted there were plenty of sections where a 130 limit would not be appropriate even by his own standards. Great publicity for a mag with falling sales but not a hugely meaningful exercise

I don't think anyone was calling for it to be blanket.

Saying "well, some areas aren't safe so that means it should never happen" is just a non-argument. Yeah. Some roads aren't safe for 80 zones. Doesn't mean we don't have them.

[BluChris]

Uhhh no, you're missing the point. This was chosen by the mag as an example of the kind of road that "should have a higher limit" and even they couldn't sustain their own argument. In the end only some parts of it could have sustained a higher limit in their own opinion, and last time I looked they were not road engineers with any expertise on this issue.

"I did this and didn't die" is the non-argument in this debate.

[wai]

"I did this and didn't die" is the non-argument in this debate.

Reminds me of when I was product development engineer with a multi-national pallet racking company. Sales reps could not understand why I would not certify a rack that their customer had loaded with 1.5 times the rated load at the load they were using it at.

There are many things that are taken into account, and it is not the "lowest common denominator". The other thing is that humans overestimate their capabilities and underestimate the risks. The amount of work that would be needed to make roads safe at higher speeds than we have would simply be unaffordable. This includes things like road surface, grade, run-off, wildlife fencing, safer roadside "furniture", lighting, sighting distances, bend radii, maximum grades, etc. The list goes on.

We did have unlimited speeds at one time not that long ago. Outside built up areas, P platers were limited to 50 mph, and full licence holders could travel faster provided they were able to show they were driving with due care. The problem is that with a fewer cars on the roads, we had a huge road toll. This was because drivers all believed they were good drivers and so opened it up once they hit the deristriction sign (black circle with a slash on a white background). Unfortunately as one Casey Stoner said "ambition exceeded ability" for the vast majority of drivers.

With increased speeds we have much greater energy that has to be absorbed in impacts, and reaction times and stopping distances also increase greatly. Accidents will happen. No one goes out with the intention of having an accident, however when they do inevitably happen, the survivability is greatly reduced.

Most drivers have no idea as to how long, wide and tall their vehicles are, and what the width of a lane is in urban and highway roads. Yet, they seem to feel absolutely confident at driving at high speeds. Most drivers will not know how long it will take to stop from various speeds either.

There is a hell of a lot more that needs to be done before higher speeds are introduced.

[Ideo]

Uhhh no, you're missing the point. This was chosen by the mag as an example of the kind of road that "should have a higher limit" and even they couldn't sustain their own argument. In the end only some parts of it could have sustained a higher limit in their own opinion, and last time I looked they were not road engineers with any expertise on this issue.

"I did this and didn't die" is the non-argument in this debate.

All of it isn't suitable. Large amounts are.

Are you a road engineer? Or are you qualified to have an opinion on the matter?

[BluChris]

Not about to reveal where I work Ideo, but let's just say I can confirm Wai has nailed a number of the engineering and human factors issues.

I'd add that vehicle safety, while it has come a long way, still can't guarantee protection in high speed crashes. People grossly overestimate what sort of impact speeds are required to kill or seriously injure them even in the very best cars available today, and remember that the average vehicle fleet age in Australia is 10 years +.

Ideo you seem to feel I'm taking issue with you. My issue is with arguments based on opinion not fact and crusades dressed up as some kind of experiment - i.e. Wheels. If they had set up something approaching a scientific experiment, they would have attempted to disprove the null hypothesis - that it is not possible to travel from Melbourne to Sydney at 130 km/h. By their own admission they didn't disprove the null; they couldn't do it.

Alternatively, did they prove it was safe to do 130 where they did? Not at all. One instance of not dying while driving at high speed is not proof of safety. Their treatment of fatigue was also facile - there's a hell of a lot more to fatigue management than just 'get there as quick as you can'. If that's you goal catch a plane.

[DonJuan]

Human factors are simple, Australians a crap drivers and inconsiderate full stop. Europeans are soo much better in every aspect as a generalisation. Driver education and skills need to be advanced here in Australia. That being said, the current limits are a joke on a lot of our roads.

Controversially, people should drive to their abilities every single time they are on the road but this doesn't happen as no one recognises what their actual ability is, the speed limit has nothing to do with it. It would be good if the people that are classified as 'better drivers' could actually drive somewhere near 75% of their actual ability. I have driven Brisbane to Melbourne and back again several times recently and besides going through towns, the roads could handle more speed easily, rather than having people falling asleep as the road and travel time bores them to death.

Now saying that, the roads need to be upgraded too for this to work as having single lane sections for a major national highway route with campervans doing 30km/h in a 100km/h zone will also cause accidents due to frustrated drivers. I followed one guy for 20km before an overtaking possibility came to fruition (I was 11th in line behind him out of the 67 vehicles I could count due to my boredom).

Conclusion, better roads, better drivers, higher speed limit. Won't happen in Australia.

[Ryan_R]

We've got some things pretty good here in Aus - I guess we can't have everything

So when are we all moving to Germany?

[sVWatt]

We've got some things pretty good here in Aus - I guess we can't have everything

So when are we all moving to Germany?

They make nice beer and nice cars. They have a single federal roads system and great drivers. If your going to go I recommend Oktoberfest time.

[DonJuan]

We've got some things pretty good here in Aus - I guess we can't have everything

So when are we all moving to Germany?

Latvia Ryan, Latvia!!! Have you seen the women?

[pologti18t]

Your right. I refer to the London Orbital. The M25.:

The variable speed limit signs REDUCE the speed from the national limit to improve congestion. The M25 is one of the busiest motorways in Europe with significant congestion and low average speeds.


Has anyone had a look at the driver training UK drivers take? It makes ours seem like going for a Medical degree
Yet their fatality rates are some of the lowest in Europe.

[Tobes_WIR35]

Having driven on the roads through Europe, I can echo what others have said. They are generally very considerate and aware drivers. Something that most Australian drivers most definitely are NOT. The roads aren't really any better than ours (our metro freeways are fantastic) so that excuse is null and void for the most part. In Queensland for example, there's absolutely no reason why the Pacific Highway/Gateway/Bruce Highway from the NSW border all the way to about Caloundra couldn't be 130km/h most of the way. Pretty much four or more lanes of beautifully smooth and relatively straight tarmac the whole way...

I don't know if this is still the case, but when I got my licence about a decade ago, there was no requirement at all to have any highway driving training or experience to get my licence. I thought that was insane at the time, and it still is.

RE the argument about road engineers, I'm not a road engineer, but I am an electrical engineer who has worked on major road projects in the last 5 years with a bunch of road engineers, and they worked to a speed safety factor of at least 1.5 - so for the lay people, this means that a road with a 100km/h limit would still be safely trafficable by a "reasonable person" at 150km/h. This probably assumes favourable weather conditions, no other traffic on the road etc...

For what it's worth, if I could speak fluent Deutsch, I would move to Germany I reckon!