DSG woes in The Age

[nat225]

With all this publicity, i will write on the rear window:

"PLEASE DO NOT TAILGATE, IT'S A VW AND MAY SUDDENLY STOP OUTSIDE MY WILL!!"

Yes? No?

[RoknRob]

Ha, ha!

What an awesome campaign it would b if all VW owner's did this!

Would certainly get VAG to take notice!

Love it. Safety message AND commentary. Must find me one...

[noone]

The article as stirred a number of unahppy customers with a variety of issues, DSG and non-DSG related. From what i read modern VW's with DSG's are more susceptible to issues than the manuals. Makes sense, there is a fair bit going on in a DSG.

With modern cars having more components and a higher reliablilty on the computers and electronics, there needs to be more safely built in. A car loosing brake assist and steering assist should be 1/1000000, not a story I've read a few times from Aus VW drivers alone.

Seems to me that the DSG issues are numerous and its not just 1 issue across the board. Seems to me some modern models are plagued with design / hardware issues (lets quickly give examples of current Polo GTI engine / oil dramas, MkV turbo wastegate rattles, DSG failures, etc). There is a tendency to talk about a variety of issues in threads about DSG issues. I guess its hard to know if an issue that presents as DSG is even that...

So, what does this all boil down to? When 1 issue happens, we all take it, when a singular issue is reported by more than 1 person, it feels like VW (dealer / service department, VWA, VW the company) are quick to deny there are any issues and occasionally there is a recall. I'm not personally very affected by issues, my '06 Polo was built using an engine that was known to be reliable and sold in VW's and Audi's for over 10 years. The worst I have is certain bushes / suspension components that fail too early / were not designed to last).

The sentiment from a growing portion of the VWW population is the newer models seem to have higher rates of issues which come with 1: being without the car for extended periods 2: having to go back to the dealer frequently 3: Being concerned about keeping the car outside of warranty 4: That the car is potentially dangerous

I hope that an effort is made to get more accountability from VW, but as VWA is a company that needs to turn a profit (will avoid costly recalls to stay in the green), what is the reality? Something tells me that I'll keep reading about the latest batch of engine / transmission issues in the new X model and how a number of people are upset and VW 'updates the software' and off you go, its all fixed (until you get down the road and it happens again).

Good luck to all those who are affected by the DSG and other common issues that should be delt with by VWA: Receiving a call to say there is a known issue with your model and they want to fix your car as you may have an issue in the future (yeah, not going to happen)

[wai]

By the way, I enquired whether the ACCC could do anything. The response I received was that unless it was a safety issue (and this would have to be demonstrated as being a fault in the vehicle that is known to VW and repeatable), they cannot do anything about it. It then becomes a negotiation between two parties and nothing to do with the ACCC.

The same goes for Fair Trading. Despite what the name suggests, it has nothing to do with fairness. A business can do whatever it likes as long as it is safe, AND it tells the customer what it is going to do to them. Even here, they do not have to make direct communication with the customer. They can sate this in terms and conditions they post in ANY public forum and change them as often as they like. I asked "How often I should check?", and the answer came back "As often as necessary", which means you can never stop checking.

So, in the end, it is "buyer beware". Do not ever think you can rely on governments to protect you.

[GippsCC]

About the only thing I'd agree with in some of these recent posts is that the DSG is indeed a complex box of tricks - more efficient than a manual(!), quite the achievement really.

I can't help but question if there is a problem, why is it not repeatable or more wide-spread? Such randomness doesn't make sense - given the nature of these control units, even when behaving unexpectedly, is that they behave in a consistent fashion. That is, set pre-conditions trigger effect (both in intended behaviour and unintended behaviour). These days, anybody can monitor module behaviour live (via VCDS, etc) and automatically log data as they drive (as long as you don't mind driving with your laptop in your passenger footwell, and sticking the Ross-Tech cable to the car to keep it getting tangled with your feet).

No-one can refute hard data, but until people get some, all we have is here-say. Seems an insufficient basis on which to write off the whole VAG, let alone even a model.

I could believe that such problems are possible, but not that are unable to be recorded by anything but anecdotes. After all, the braking issues with Toyota's hybrids were able to be data logged and replicated under controlled conditions (the 2010 recalls, the earlier braking issues related to mat interference and ironically the addition of friction to pedal travel so as to provide a familiar feel to older control mechanisms).

Some references to conspiracy, etc, seem very far fetched - I doubt any manufacturer as large as VAG would deliberately kill future sales (and we are talking massive markets here) by doing anything other than ensuring their cars are safe to drive! No short-cut saving could rationally justify the market at stake, far better a recall than face annihilation.

[RoknRob]

I think you've hit the nail on the head, GippsCC.

It is probably that exact randomness that makes a consistent fault difficult to reproduce, therefore difficult to fix. The randomness is easily explained when one considers just how incredibly complex these units are!

Which is why I think VAG is so reluctant to do a recall. Short of pulling the plugs on these engines/gearboxes, what can they offer?

But to suggest the problems aren't real because they are not reproducible, in the face of overwhelming reports like the multitude on this forum , or the comments attached to the Fairfax article, is folly.

VW stands to lose a lot of business if they continue to stick their collective head in the sand.

[alexaescht]

DSG woes in The Age

As Gavs has said before, VW need to replace all 7-speed dry-clutch DQ200 gearboxes with the 6-speed wet-clutch DQ250. They statistically have a much, much lower failure rate than the DQ200, and are smoother during operation. It would of course cost a heap of money for VW because of everything they'd have to do to make the different gearbox fit and all of the certification processes that would result, but hopefully the gearbox would be swapped to the DQ250 and from there on no further problems would arise.

[nomadx38]

What my gearbox does is different to what most others do. In a way it's pretty unique to me (how lucky am I!!!) in that no one has seen it before and no one knows how to fix it. All I know if that the gearbox is NOT to blame but the information that is given to the gearbox from various sensors and electronics is - which isn't allowing it to properly match the engine speed (as it would seem) and as such drops the clutch quite frequently.

No fault codes ever - many replacement of mechanics electronics - no fix! I don't blame VW for much but more R&D and In field testing should have been done to fix what is clearly a problem with the computer trying to understand infomation that it has never seen before or is out of range. These gearboxes are awesome and a technical marvel but I think the software that is required to run this has to be of a higher level than what "they" think is acceptable.

[Hail22]

Interesting: Direct-Shift Gearbox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

All of the countries listed are currently conducting a recall/fix oh hold on a second...not Australia

Good work VGA don't worry if word of mouth won't damage your brand social media will...slowly but surely.

[Diesel_vert]

Some references to conspiracy, etc, seem very far fetched - I doubt any manufacturer as large as VAG would deliberately kill future sales (and we are talking massive markets here) by doing anything other than ensuring their cars are safe to drive! No short-cut saving could rationally justify the market at stake, far better a recall than face annihilation.

It's not a conspiracy - it's just business.

Volkswagen passenger vehicles sold in 2012:

Australia = 42,785 units

Worldwide = 5,738,449 units

That's less than 1% of total units (or 0.75% to be precise), so with figures like that, they can afford to play the waiting game. It probably wouldn't even matter to Volkswagen HQ if our market were to collapse tomorrow, so I can see them fighting to the bitter end before announcing a recall on all 7-speed DSG transmissions.

As Gavs has said before, VW need to replace all 7-speed dry-clutch DQ200 gearboxes with the 6-speed wet-clutch DQ250. They statistically have a much, much lower failure rate than the DQ200, and are smoother during operation. It would of course cost a heap of money for VW because of everything they'd have to do to make the different gearbox fit and all of the certification processes that would result, but hopefully the gearbox would be swapped to the DQ250 and from there on no further problems would arise.

Given their statements so far, it would be extraordinary if a recall were to be announced.

But even if such a recall were to be announced, the engine stalling issue still wouldn't be resolved for vehicles equipped with a manual transmission (as was allegedly the case with Ms Ryan's Golf, and many others).

What my gearbox does is different to what most others do. In a way it's pretty unique to me (how lucky am I!!!) in that no one has seen it before and no one knows how to fix it. All I know if that the gearbox is NOT to blame but the information that is given to the gearbox from various sensors and electronics is - which isn't allowing it to properly match the engine speed (as it would seem) and as such drops the clutch quite frequently.

No fault codes ever - many replacement of mechanics electronics - no fix! I don't blame VW for much but more R&D and In field testing should have been done to fix what is clearly a problem with the computer trying to understand infomation that it has never seen before or is out of range. These gearboxes are awesome and a technical marvel but I think the software that is required to run this has to be of a higher level than what "they" think is acceptable.

It's a given that modern cars are a complex machine, but every major vehicle manufacturer is in the same boat.

The question is, why is it so difficult for one of the most preeminent vehicle manufacturers to design a reliable failsafe mechanism or program?

Good work VGA don't worry if word of mouth won't damage your brand social media will...slowly but surely.

It's a calculated risk (EDIT: sorry, not gamble, that would just be naive) that VW have taken, and I'm sure the actuaries have it all worked out.

Whether it pays off or blows up in their face... remains to be seen.

[Hail22]

What I found interesting is what VW singapore said:

what is the technical issue behind VW DSG recalls?

Sulphur in the gear oil and an inorganic heat stabiliser in the plastic parts (iodine) of the mechatronic unit can cause metallic surfaces to be attacked and to suffer from electrolytic corrosion, in connection with high air humidity and high outside temperatures. Conducting particles can then settle between the circuit paths of the control unit and could cause a short circuit.

Correct me if I'm wrong...most of Australia has mild to high levels of humidity...and errrrmmm high external temperatures in the summer...what the deuce?

[GippsCC]

RoknRob you missed my point, yes the DSG is a complex box of tricks, but the problem cannot be random. Whether errant code or mechanical failure (and the suggestion is errant code, from what has been said), such a state should be able to be replicated or at the very least recorded - yes, there might be multiple factors involved, but the Volkswagen is full of monitoring units constantly checking the operating state of the vehicle and logging faults - not to mention anyone can plug into VCDS and do their own sophisticated logging of vehicle behaviour realtime should they choose.

I don't believe in ghosts in the machine - either something exists or it does not, and if it exists it can be recorded and logged. More than a few people have said that this "sudden loss of power" has happened to them repeatedly, so surely someone somewhere can back up these claims with real evidence. I don't say this to discredit anything said, but if no-one can do better than "This happened to me" then this matter seems to lack supportive substance - certainly I doubt anyone anywhere will do anything on such a basis.

Machines and their software, unlike philosophy or religion, are hard science quantifiable measurable and recordable objects - they do not act randomly (unlike humans) as they are bound by their design and coding, given the same set of circumstances they repeat the same actions (even when those actions are not the ones the designers/coders intended!). That is my point, and right now there seems to be nothing but conjecture, a shakey basis for claiming "death trap".

I don't work for VW, nor do I have an investment in the issue (beyond owning a VW myself and having driven a VW since 2006). I read The Age story, and what's been said here by some - particularly the claims that somehow VW, the ACCC or the Government are somehow failing the driving public - and I'm befuddled how some of these things can be said on the scant lack of any real evidence. Some are drawing a very, very long bow indeed. As to the problem existing, it's possible, but possible is probably all it will remain until something more is offered up.

[GippsCC]

It's not a conspiracy - it's just business.

That was my point, it was highly unlikely to be conspiracy - I didn't claim it to be, just highlighting the silliness of making such claims without evidence.

I'd also note that the claims being made extend beyond just the 7sp DSG - the car at the centre of The Age article was a manual!

If a problem exists, VW Australia will be - at some point - confronted with irrefutable proof which means that they would have to conduct a recall at some point. So what do they gain, exactly, by delaying expected damage to their market? (even if Australia is only 1% to them, you are still talking a substantial amount of money - and that's not taking into account negative impacts overseas because media doesn't stop at a country's borders)

In any case, if I thought VW was selling death traps I'd get rid of my VW and never buy another, but I don't think I'll be doing that anytime soon - certainly not on the basis present.

[Diesel_vert]

not to mention anyone can plug into VCDS and do their own sophisticated logging of vehicle behaviour realtime should they choose.

Unless the seller (VW) has instructions informing the consumer on how to carry out their own diagnostic procedures and be able to interpret the data (not to mention if or how they'll provide such equipment), it would be considered unreasonable (nor expected) that most consumers would (or should) know how to do that.

You should also keep in mind that it is entirely possible that not all unexpected occurrences or failures are detected or logged by the computer. These systems may be sophisticated, but they are not foolproof.

RoknRob you missed my point, yes the DSG is a complex box of tricks, but the problem cannot be random. Whether errant code or mechanical failure (and the suggestion is errant code, from what has been said), such a state should be able to be replicated or at the very least recorded - yes, there might be multiple factors involved, but the Volkswagen is full of monitoring units constantly checking the operating state of the vehicle and logging faults - not to mention anyone can plug into VCDS and do their own sophisticated logging of vehicle behaviour realtime should they choose.

I don't believe in ghosts in the machine - either something exists or it does not, and if it exists it can be recorded and logged. More than a few people have said that this "sudden loss of power" has happened to them repeatedly, so surely someone somewhere can back up these claims with real evidence. I don't say this to discredit anything said, but if no-one can do better than "This happened to me" then this matter seems to lack supportive substance - certainly I doubt anyone anywhere will do anything on such a basis.

Machines and their software, unlike philosophy or religion, are hard science quantifiable measurable and recordable objects - they do not act randomly (unlike humans) as they are bound by their design and coding, given the same set of circumstances they repeat the same actions (even when those actions are not the ones the designers/coders intended!). That is my point, and right now there seems to be nothing but conjecture, a shakey basis for claiming "death trap".

Despite all of that, I find it worrying that VW seem to have great difficulty in coming up with a solution for the consumer.

That is unless, everyone is a troll and is just making these stories up (which is possible, haha!). But in the face of the sheer number of complaints, dismissing it as mere conjecture doesn't seem to be reasonable at this stage.

With all the media attention VW are receiving, now may be good time for those affected by this to get these issues investigated.

I'd also note that the claims being made extend beyond just the 7sp DSG - the car at the centre of The Age article was a manual!

I know - that's what makes it more concerning.

If the cause was related to the DSG itself, this may have been the last straw and may well have triggered a recall. Crisis over.

But on the face of it, this issue of engine stalling doesn't appear to discriminate between gearboxes, which is more troubling.

If a problem exists, VW Australia will be - at some point - confronted with irrefutable proof which means that they would have to conduct a recall at some point.

I hope all those involved find a solution soon, for everyone's sake.

So what do they gain, exactly, by delaying expected damage to their market? (even if Australia is only 1% to them, you are still talking a substantial amount of money - and that's not taking into account negative impacts overseas because media doesn't stop at a country's borders)

It's not a matter of gain, it's a matter of losing the least amount possible.

They would save lotsa money by not issuing a voluntary recall - unless the cost of lost sales (word of mouth, social media, etc) exceeds the cost of the recall - upon which they would then issue a recall.

Or unless the regulator demands they issue a recall - but until then, there's no (financial) point of issuing a voluntary recall right now.

EDIT: depending on the likelihood that a consumer would consult a lawyer.

In any case, if I thought VW was selling death traps I'd get rid of my VW and never buy another, but I don't think I'll be doing that anytime soon - certainly not on the basis present.

If I were in your shoes, neither would I - since the CC doesn't appear to be affected by this.

[SilvrFoxX]

Re: DSG woes in The Age

VW response to Faifax http://volkswagenaustralia.com.au/responsetofairfax/

Seems this is not going away http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/f...531-2nha9.html