Why spending the extra $1300 on the Dynaudio upgrade is a waste of money...

[Corey_R]

Why bother with anything better when MP3 rips suck sonically anyway?

LAME.exe -V2 (3.98.4) gets you as good as you'll get without using FLAC. Though the Sansa supports FLAC too.
In any case, the quality of the correctly encoded LAME MP3 files is so good that I don't personally know anyone who can tell the diff between them and the original in anything but a dedicated music system and room, and even then, only some people I know can. In fact, each time I've had the argument with someone I personally know, I've been able to prove them wrong by doing a blind test of the same song both as a raw WAV and LAME MP3. The reason is the quality is so close that with the noise associated with cars, or any other type of public/office listening, I , nor the people I have challenged, can tell - not, with $1000+ IEM's or $700 Sennheiser HD650's via $1200 headphone amp/DAC... and certainly not with the Dynaudio.

I bought them for practicality not sound quality. I don't like IEMs or earbuds. I think I've mentioned this to you before.
The PX10s are small and fold up into a small neat package which I can fit into a coat pocket or dump into my haversack the Sony 8Gb player was the cheapest at the time (2 years ago).

I'm an all or nothing person. So I use my sony/px10 kit just for radio reception (which gets cut off for 15mins of my trip when the train is underground) or for listening to recorded talks. Otherwise it is just recorded muzak (listened to at a low volume to preserve my hearing) to pass the time. I spend quality time and money in front of and on my home rig instead.

The Sony wasn't the cheapest 2 years ago either... the original Clip was But that's ok. The sony is the cheapest easy-to-get one.
As for the PX10's, since they don't isolate the outside environment at all, I just couldn't use them. Trains & buses are just too loud for me to listen to music on these open types of earphones/headphones. Hence the use of IEMs.

So I mean, you claim to be an audiophile and an "all or nothing person" yet are happy to listen to crappy earphones mixed with the unisolated noise of a train. Yet you are happy with the crappy sound of a MK6 Golf stereo.

Keep in mind also that the quality of the standard system has been reduced from the MKV to MK6. The MKV was a 10 speaker system with 250w amp. The MK6 is 8 speaker with 80w, and Dynaudio still 8 speakers, albeit upgraded, and a 300w amp.

Anyway - as I said at the start of this thread, the topic is pointless as the article says nothing that anyone who would actually care wouldn't already know.

so ya reckon the 'standard' VW system is no good corey? i find it alot better than alotta sytems out there

Yeah.... it's crap imo.
I also don't believe that you can get significantly better for $1000 (especially as Ideo points out, no one pays full retail anyway). Even the people who do say you can get better, conveniently overlook that, and overlook the aftermarket labour cost, and usually have spent more than $1000 on the equipment anyway

[dood]

Keep in mind also that the quality of the standard system has been reduced from the MKV to MK6. The MKV was a 10 speaker system with 250w amp. The MK6 is 8 speaker with 80w, and Dynaudio still 8 speakers, albeit upgraded, and a 300w amp.

Interesting. I used to think the sound system in my Mk IV Bora was great - would that have ben the same as in the Mk V golf? It may not have been the standard on ethough as the car came with other options - leather heated electric seats.

I find the sound from my Mk VI golf 118 is punchier and tighter than from my new passat 118. I'd expect it to be the other way around. Is it just me or does the passat have an inferior system?

[GTREA]

Yet you are happy with the crappy sound of a MK6 Golf stereo.

Yeah.... it's crap imo.

Slight over exaggeration i imagine there.....

List of better sounding comparable factory systems?

[triode12]

LAME.exe -V2 (3.98.4) gets you as good as you'll get without using FLAC. Though the Sansa supports FLAC too.
In any case, the quality of the correctly encoded LAME MP3 files is so good that I don't personally know anyone who can tell the diff between them and the original in anything but a dedicated music system and room, and even then, only some people I know can. In fact, each time I've had the argument with someone I personally know, I've been able to prove them wrong by doing a blind test of the same song both as a raw WAV and LAME MP3. The reason is the quality is so close that with the noise associated with cars, or any other type of public/office listening, I , nor the people I have challenged, can tell - not, with $1000+ IEM's or $700 Sennheiser HD650's via $1200 headphone amp/DAC... and certainly not with the Dynaudio.

If you think that even FLAC and WAV are good then you really don't know what you are missing and haven't heard a really good analog setup. Besides, listening to headphones is a waste of time IMO. I had to spend up to $4K to find that out. The soundstaging is a tiny shelf at the back of your head. The only headphone setup worth considering is the Symthe system which does some tech voodoo to trick your brain into thinking that the soundstage is in front of you or if you listen Binaural recordings - which are almost non-existent in the market.


The Sony wasn't the cheapest 2 years ago either... the original Clip was But that's ok. The sony is the cheapest easy-to-get one.
As for the PX10's, since they don't isolate the outside environment at all, I just couldn't use them. Trains & buses are just too loud for me to listen to music on these open types of earphones/headphones. Hence the use of IEMs.

So I mean, you claim to be an audiophile and an "all or nothing person" yet are happy to listen to crappy earphones mixed with the unisolated noise of a train. Yet you are happy with the crappy sound of a MK6 Golf stereo.

Keep in mind also that the quality of the standard system has been reduced from the MKV to MK6. The MKV was a 10 speaker system with 250w amp. The MK6 is 8 speaker with 80w, and Dynaudio still 8 speakers, albeit upgraded, and a 300w amp.

Anyway - as I said at the start of this thread, the topic is pointless as the article says nothing that anyone who would actually care wouldn't already know.

At $129, it was cheap for an 8Gb player at the time. I'm happy. Like I said, I don't listen to it for sound quality, just to pass the time because that it all it is worth for, just like those cheap battery AM radios of the 70s. I bought it mainly for the radio function and to listen to recorded talks. I don't know why you are getting so agitated and upset as to why I chose this route. I don't like the sound for the these devices but I am not listening to them critically for extended periods of time because they suck so why spend more money on stuff that suck (which reminds me that I should offload my headphone gear). Better to invest in the home rig which gives me the correct soundstaging, imaging and a whole lot better audio quality. AND I hate sticking stuff in my ear canal. esp IEMs.


Yeah.... it's crap imo.
I also don't believe that you can get significantly better for $1000 (especially as Ideo points out, no one pays full retail anyway). Even the people who do say you can get better, conveniently overlook that, and overlook the aftermarket labour cost, and usually have spent more than $1000 on the equipment anyway

I agree it is crap but it comes with the car and I don't have to pay extra to make it better crap. If you can get it discounted perhaps it would be worth it. But I personally wouldn't bother. When I drive esp on the OPH, my concentration is such that I am not really listening to the radio/CDs anyway. Just enjoying the drive. As a matter of fact, I haven't even loaded any songs onto the HDD of my RNS510 (which we were forced to buy- the only black 3DR Pirelli left and it came factory fitted) that is how nonchalant I am about listening while travelling. We mainly use it for radio duties and of course SatNav.

[pologti18t]

I mean lets face it, most people these days don't care about audio quality and accuracy. Hence why many of the good audio stores around Australia are disappearing.

Or is the real reason that most cars come with systems that are deemed sufficiently adequate for the vast majority of drivers Add to this facia design that discourages head unit changes and you could see the decline in after market suppliers years ago.

[easeup]

You buggers are spoilt. After being a Subaru driver for quite a while, i think the GTI's factory audio system is brilliant! It doesn't match my Yamaha monitor speakers in my home studio and never will. But it sounds great when i play De La Soul very loudly on the graham farmer freeway...

[Ideo]

Just for the record I didn't spec the Dynaudio from factory - I bought dealer stock.

It's a decent system for a car - much better than the Bose I had in the S3, especially for the price, but it's a car. it is a compromised listening environment to start with.

[gldgti]

C'mon guys, a little chill maybe?
VW Pink Moon Commercial - YouTube

Instead of worrying about how bad your car stereo is, maybe just get a car in which the quality of the stereo becomes completely moot

[Corey_R]

If you think that even FLAC and WAV are good then you really don't know what you are missing and haven't heard a really good analog setup.

FLAC and WAV are both bit for bit accurate to the original digital source (CD, DVD, etc). In the context of this thread, that is all that's important.

I once had the pleasure of listening to a ~$500k "stereo" with the "record player" comprising of about 15 pieces totalling over $200k in that setup. It was extremely apparently when changing from the same recording on LP to the same recording on the $90k 4 piece "CD player" that CD is far inferior to analog.

But realistically, this entire thread is not about analog vs digital, since we haven't had any analog in cars for decades, and as far as I know, we've never had LP's, nor reel to reel in cars So I wasn't even using analog as a reference point in my comments, as again, completely pointless in this type of discussion.


Btw. FLAC and WAV can approach analog quality if they contain the 24bit/96kHz or even 192kHz versions of the original digital master/digital remaster of the original analog recordings. From what the big boys at Stereophile say (John Atkinson etc), you'd have to be pretty well trained and on pretty good equipment (and on their level, I guess we're talking multiple hundreds of $k) to determine the difference then.

[triode12]

FLAC and WAV are both bit for bit accurate to the original digital source (CD, DVD, etc). In the context of this thread, that is all that's important.

I once had the pleasure of listening to a ~$500k "stereo" with the "record player" comprising of about 15 pieces totalling over $200k in that setup. It was extremely apparently when changing from the same recording on LP to the same recording on the $90k 4 piece "CD player" that CD is far inferior to analog.

But realistically, this entire thread is not about analog vs digital, since we haven't had any analog in cars for decades, and as far as I know, we've never had LP's, nor reel to reel in cars So I wasn't even using analog as a reference point in my comments, as again, completely pointless in this type of discussion.


Btw. FLAC and WAV can approach analog quality if they contain the 24bit/96kHz or even 192kHz versions of the original digital master/digital remaster of the original analog recordings. From what the big boys at Stereophile say (John Atkinson etc), you'd have to be pretty well trained and on pretty good equipment (and on their level, I guess we're talking multiple hundreds of $k) to determine the difference then.

You made your conclusion listening to one system? There are many variables involved besides the source material. Whether the components system were well matched and setup properly to begin with. The quality of the recording on vinyl. There are well mastered records as there are bad ones just like there are CDs.

From my experience, I still believe that analog still beats digital, digital can approach the quality of vinyl (soundstaging, imaging) perhaps (if a lot of money is thrown at it) but not better $ for $. And throwing $$ on equipment for a system doesn't necessarily make it a better, IME , I have heard very expensive systems sound absolutely terrible. One doesn't need to even have to spend over $20K to get a system that is state of the art or in Stereophile speak "Class A".

BTW, Stereophile sold their soul almost 20 years ago to the advertisers as did Absolute Sounds. Which was about the time I stopped reading their mags. They are equivalent to Top Gear but for audio.

Even if you were to use FLAC and WAV recordings of that standard, you are still playing them through a portable player and IEMs. So what is the point?

And bringing it back to cars, with the inherently bad sound environment, what is the point even if you use CDs or have a Dynaudio system. The difference would be it is perhaps 10% less bad sounding than the standard system. It is akin to listening to FLAC and WAV on your portable player. What is the point of it?

[triode12]

C'mon guys, a little chill maybe?
VW Pink Moon Commercial - YouTube

Instead of worrying about how bad your car stereo is, maybe just get a car in which the quality of the stereo becomes completely moot

Well put, that is the point of my first post, forget about spending more on the stereo in the car. It is a waste of money. Instead direct the funds to other performance mods that increase your driving enjoyment.

[DoggieHowser]

Triode seems to love being argumentative. Just for it's own sake.

Yes. Analog gear can sound superb. But listening to vinyl is almost like a ritual for some. And snaps crackles and pops are a constant bane.

And I'd love to see someone set up a turntable in a car green hornet bs aside.

I've just heard the EMM Labs XDS1 and yes, it's gotten to the point where the delineation is getting harder and harder vs a similarly priced analog component in the same system.

But we are talking about a car here. Even with crappola MP3s, I can tell a difference between the bog standard audio system and the Dynaudio upgrade. And as others have pointed out, it's not that expensive compared to an aftermarket Dynaudio kit. so if you are going to customize yr order anyway, it's not a stretch.

[triode12]

Triode seems to love being argumentative. Just for it's own sake.

Yes. Analog gear can sound superb. But listening to vinyl is almost like a ritual for some. And snaps crackles and pops are a constant bane.

And I'd love to see someone set up a turntable in a car green hornet bs aside.

I've just heard the EMM Labs XDS1 and yes, it's gotten to the point where the delineation is getting harder and harder vs a similarly priced analog component in the same system.

But we are talking about a car here. Even with crappola MP3s, I can tell a difference between the bog standard audio system and the Dynaudio upgrade. And as others have pointed out, it's not that expensive compared to an aftermarket Dynaudio kit. so if you are going to customize yr order anyway, it's not a stretch.

Excuse me, I didn't start the argument. Corey did and it was he that went on the attack first.
I am just standing by my beliefs, just like he is and you are. Is that so wrong?
In my experience, digital still doesn't come close to analog. And I am not the only one that holds this view. The mentioning of installing a record player in the car is just a red herring on your part. SO who is being argumentative in this case? Pot calling the kettle black it seems. The fact that you mention crackle and pops suggests to me that you haven't heard a well setup and maintained vinyl system.


Like I said and you have agreed, the environment inside the car is flawed, so what is the point of spending more money trying to correct something as basic as correct soundstaging and imaging(one of the main foundations of stereo sound) which is impossible in that confined space -unless you are not familiar with what a proper Hi-End system is capable of - of which I am inclined to believe. You are never going to do it so why waste the money trying?

[Corey_R]

And bringing it back to cars, with the inherently bad sound environment, what is the point even if you use CDs or have a Dynaudio system. The difference would be it is perhaps 10% less bad sounding than the standard system. It is akin to listening to FLAC and WAV on your portable player. What is the point of it?

You did read where I said that I agree with you that analog is superior to digital right? And no, it was one of several systems. But none of that is relevant to cars.

But back to the quote above... the reason is that even deaf freddy can hear the difference between the standard system and the Dynaudio. It isn't subtle. Just because you like listening to LPs and can't do that in a car, doesn't mean that CD's/FLAC/MP3s don't have high enough quality to clearly demonstrate the difference in quality between the stock and Dynaudio systems, even in a the bad car environment. It is not at all like the minute difference between properly encoded MP3s vs FLAC.

Well put, that is the point of my first post, forget about spending more on the stereo in the car. It is a waste of money. Instead direct the funds to other performance mods that increase your driving enjoyment.

I still disagree with your first post. It's pointless as anyone who actually cares about music already knows this, and anyone who doesn't care, well, don't care. Which is why I think this thread is pointless, because it's effectively no different from any of the other existing Dynaudio vs Stock system threads.

There are a lot of people who would be of the opinion that spending money on performance mods is also a waste of money because the speed limit on most roads is 60km/h and on the fastest roads are 110km/h (or 130km/h in NT) and all modern standard cars can reach those speeds. So therefore, performance mods are a waste of money.

Spend your money where you like

Excuse me, I didn't start the argument. Corey did

Actually, I'm pretty sure you started this thread... (when there are already several Dynaudio threads just like this one around the forums where this exact discussion has already taken place, and you have already taken part in them).

But I agree that we're just stating our opinions and all of them are valid.
But I still think you've misread my last post cause I agree that analog is better... it's just completely irrelevant to this thread since it's about Volkswagens not home systems...

But we are talking about a car here. Even with crappola MP3s, I can tell a difference between the bog standard audio system and the Dynaudio upgrade. And as others have pointed out, it's not that expensive compared to an aftermarket Dynaudio kit. so if you are going to customize yr order anyway, it's not a stretch.

Yep, and that's exactly the point. We already know that cars are bad environments, but the difference between stock and Dynaudio is not subtle, and the cost is pretty inexpensive given the improvement you get, the overall cost of the car, and the cost of aftermarket Dynaudio gear as you've mentioned.

[DoggieHowser]

I've gotten some brand new records from Linn which came with snap crackle and pop from day one. Others in the shop suffered from same problems. I find that if you use a less detailed cart, you can minimize the problems somewhat. But despite the best attempts at cleaning, you can never get rid of noise completely. What you can do is tune it out sorta. Especially when you are swept by the music. And when it's not during a quiet passage.

Yes soundstage and imaging are gone but in a reasonably affordable setup you still get stereo steering and with the Dynaudios, surprisingly good levels of dynamics and details. Enjoying music is IMHO an emotional experience. And that's something even a good incar setup can do. If it's about traditional speaker soundstage, I guess even headfi is out.