Sam's build thread

[sambb]

Yeah I think I'm going to do the same. Make marks for street -2.0 and track -3.0. For Wakefield next time I will run assymetric camber like you'd said though cos if the car actually has some power and reliability this time I'll be hoping to really put down a good time. If I have time I may even take the front right up to -3.0 neg for the southern loop vw nats day for the left hand circuit.

I'm pretty over the packing job for the hillclimbs like you said too. I've basically now got a tool box for the track and a tool box for home. I don't dive into the track tool box too often so its ready to go, and I've got the packing down to an art. There is nothing worse though than arriving at the track at 7am (sometimes after a 4 hour drive) , unpacking, doing the tyres etc etc in a big rush before scrutineering/briefing. I'm always a buggered sweaty mess before we start. And at the end of the day all the guys with trailers just drive straight on, get out of their race gear and crack a beer for the presentations but I'm slaving still (and very jealous). I'm seriously getting to the stage where I don't want to do too much more to make the car fast given that the limited funds should go onto building some reliability and safety into the car. Your just so snookered with a 2 door airbag car in NSW if you want to keep road reg. You want a proper seat and a harness but then you really need a HANS and a 4 point but that requires 2 seater engineering. That'd require a second daily car anyway because of needing to put kids in the back and would do nothing to change the fact that the car needs to be loaded up every time I race. Maybe yeah the wifes next car needs to be a tow car and i'll take it right off the road and gut the thing and just drive an Up! around town on third party property.

[sambb]

Hey Gary one more question. When I'm doing toe measurements, my plates are 580mm wide. Yet the rims are 15in (381mm) wide. I've always been using trig to get the plate measurement differential converted to a number that relates to a 15in rim. When you do your toe measurements though and state that you want say 4mm total toe out or whatever, is that more or less the differential that you measure at the plates (which are longer than the rims) or do you back calculate it down to a number that relates to the length of the rim too?

[Sydneykid]

Hey Gary one more question. When I'm doing toe measurements, my plates are 580mm wide. Yet the rims are 15in (381mm) wide. I've always been using trig to get the plate measurement differential converted to a number that relates to a 15in rim. When you do your toe measurements though and state that you want say 4mm total toe out or whatever, is that more or less the differential that you measure at the plates (which are longer than the rims) or do you back calculate it down to a number that relates to the length of the rim too?

I use the same toe plates on every car, same size so it doesn't matter what diameter wheels they have. As a result the toe is comparable across cars. Using ~580 mm plates around 4 mm toe out should be OK for your car. With polyurethane bushes and control arm flex on a 10 year old road car, a mm either way isn't going to make a lot of difference. You could go to 6 mm, but I wouldn't suggest less than 4 mm. Considering how hard it is to adjust, I wouldn't be too fussy, you'll be there all day looking for a mm.


Cheers
Gary

[Sydneykid]

I'm pretty over the packing job for the hillclimbs like you said too. I've basically now got a tool box for the track and a tool box for home. I don't dive into the track tool box too often so its ready to go, and I've got the packing down to an art. There is nothing worse though than arriving at the track at 7am (sometimes after a 4 hour drive) , unpacking, doing the tyres etc etc in a big rush before scrutineering/briefing. I'm always a buggered sweaty mess before we start. And at the end of the day all the guys with trailers just drive straight on, get out of their race gear and crack a beer for the presentations but I'm slaving still (and very jealous). I'm seriously getting to the stage where I don't want to do too much more to make the car fast given that the limited funds should go onto building some reliability and safety into the car. Your just so snookered with a 2 door airbag car in NSW if you want to keep road reg. You want a proper seat and a harness but then you really need a HANS and a 4 point but that requires 2 seater engineering. That'd require a second daily car anyway because of needing to put kids in the back and would do nothing to change the fact that the car needs to be loaded up every time I race. Maybe yeah the wifes next car needs to be a tow car and i'll take it right off the road and gut the thing and just drive an Up! around town on third party property.

There are lots of little things that you learn how to do to make life easier at the track. It really comes down to how many track outings a year. To go to the cost of a trailer, dedicated race car, tow car etc it really needs at least 8 to even get close to justifying it. For many years I shared a trailer with a friend of mine, I'd crew for him when he was racing and then he'd crew for me. We used to "rent a ute" and do around 10 to 12 outings a year between the 2 of us. That was probably the most economical racing I think I have ever done. Then he retired, got married and went golfing so I bought the other half of the trailer and used my Dad's car to tow with. I stored the trailer at my parent's place and the race car was at my place.

The trick is finding a solution that works for your particular circumstances and, of course, budget.

Cheers
Gary

[sambb]

Ok that's good to know regarding the toe. If say I measured 2.5mm toe out with the plates, if I back calculated that for a 15in rim it would come out at 1.6mm. I'd remembered you saying that you just went off the plate numbers in previous posts. Just wanted to check so that apples for apples if you said 4mm toe we'd be talking about the same thing.
I'm thinking the best thing might be to eventually take the Polo off the road and engineer it as a 2 seater so that I can have a one piece seat, harness and a hans. I'll insure it for third party property/theft and keep rego on it so I can drive to the track. Then I'll buy a ****ter for commuting that only needs TPP too and all up i'll be ahead money wise, wont need a tow vehicle and the car I race will be much more racey.

[Sydneykid]

Ok that's good to know regarding the toe. If say I measured 2.5mm toe out with the plates, if I back calculated that for a 15in rim it would come out at 1.6mm. I'd remembered you saying that you just went off the plate numbers in previous posts. Just wanted to check so that apples for apples if you said 4mm toe we'd be talking about the same thing.
I'm thinking the best thing might be to eventually take the Polo off the road and engineer it as a 2 seater so that I can have a one piece seat, harness and a hans. I'll insure it for third party property/theft and keep rego on it so I can drive to the track. Then I'll buy a ****ter for commuting that only needs TPP too and all up i'll be ahead money wise, wont need a tow vehicle and the car I race will be much more racey.

There's a point at which a car becomes too "track" oriented to drive very far, so Eastern Creek is OK, Wakefield is a stretch and Bathurst/ Tamworth are nightmare journeys. Plus these days the risk of an over zealous lawman making you park it on the way to a track is just too painful. Then there is always the risk of damaging it and not being able to drive it home.

Economical decision, depending on the number of outings, paying $1K rego plus a couple of hundy for insurance compared to;
renting both a trailer and a tow vehicle
buying a tow vehicle that you drive everyday and renting a trailer
buying a trailer and renting a tow vehicle

They all have pluses and minuses, with space to park the car and trailer also a consideration. I'd suggest a test run first, rent both for a one day event and see how you like it.

Cheers
Gary

[metalhead]

Yeh, the track car/street car balance is what I'm looking at with the Vette, and is always a struggle. I find it hard to justify the expenses involved in a car if it only gets driven for about 15-20 minutes a year (track only)! I went halves on a trailer with a mate, and already had a suitable towing vehicle (my wife has horses too), but honestly I'd rather drive to and from the events if it weren't for the hassle of tyres and risk of getting home - I don't have your concerns about converting to a two seater, but on the other hand I can't transport an extra set of wheels and tyres in the car either. Driving a few hundred km on track tyres, at the risk of rain or whatever else doesn't seem like a smart move to me. I also like being able to jump in the car and drive it to work, go on holidays in it, enjoy it on a sunny day, or just go for a drive to make sure everything is working nicely before an event. On the other hand, go too far down the road of developing the car for track use, and it risks becoming a lot less enjoyable for those uses anyway - certainly much less likely to enjoy my wife's company on a drive - and I'm conscious of this at the moment when considering what else to do on the Vette.

I do often look at older track cars that come up for sale and wonder if I wouldn't be better off running an old improved production style Commodore or turbo datsun/mazda, but then it comes back to the fact that while parts and ultimate speed may be cheaper, I'm not getting the enjoyment/use off the track, so is it ultimately more expensive if I still want a toy to enjoy the rest of the time?

Then (as Gary alludes to) you have others competing in "road registered" classes that push the limits of what could be considered a road car as well...

[simon k]

Doesn't help for a 10 year old Polo, but it would for a 25 year old MK2 Golf

I'm not sure what the status is of club permits in NSW, but the Vic system has made it really easy to own a car that can be kept on the road for when it's needed (like a nice drive when you feel like it, or run to work when the daily is broken) but be generally set up for competition. About 5 years ago I'd made my mini too unreliable to remain as my daily and convinced my wife it'd be cheaper to put it on a club permit and run a boring car day-to-day. The mini now costs a less than $400 to be on a 45 day log book permit and $21k comprehensive insurance - it's a no brainer. I can use it when I need it... if 45 days isn't enough I can pay for another 45...

There are plenty of Group N cars that are on club permits - many even leave their plates on when competing

Wife's daily is a tow car and I borrow a trailer for the Queens B'day long weekend event at Hay, but it's a pain in the neck - I want my own trailer but I'm not allowed. At the moment I leave the race tyres on the back and put road tyres on the front to drive to the event (up to a couple of hundred k's away), then put the race tyres on and take them off again at the end of the day - then there's the problem of breaking it and getting home.

[metalhead]

Yeh, I keep tossing up that route, I think the wording for the NSW Hillclimb Championship requires full rego? Also, they're now requiring new cars going on to NSW historic rego to be factory stock, otherwise engineering certificates and approval are required and some equivalent form of conditional rego (not actually historic rego) is given. Kinda easier for me to just stay on full rego at this point...

From here Historic vehicles - Get a NSW registration - Registration - Roads - Roads and Maritime Services
"Historic vehicles must be as close to original condition as possible, with no alterations except for safety features such as seatbelts and turn indicators, or period accessories and options, if desired.

LPG conversions are allowed providing it is approved by the Roads and Maritime recognised historic vehicle club.

Vehicles converted from left-hand drive to right-hand drive are allowed provided that the vehicle otherwise meets all requirements for the Historic Vehicle Scheme."

To get the alternative scheme for modified vehicles "Classic vehicles conditional rego": Classic vehicles - Get a NSW registration - Registration - Roads - Roads and Maritime Services the car must be inspected, detailed, and approved by an engineer as meeting current standards, than approved as suitable by some committee made up of members of various clubs, and all documented, and then any changes require reinspection and reapproval etc... May end up being not too bad in practise, a guy I know has just gone through it for his rhd converted Corvette (they have since changed the rules so that his could have been historic rego!) but being a new arrangement with a lot of unknowns and potentially onerous conditions does put me off the idea.

[sambb]

But all that drive <45 days a year etc that's for historic plates only isn't it, or is there another system I don't know about. Andrew I know I can remain in Road Reg class if I'm an engineered two seater, I just need to take the papers with me 2 events, but I do wonder if historic rego qualifies as normal rego under those CAMS rules - dunno?
Not sure about the historic link you sent. I think that may be getting rejigged as we speak. Pete went onto a new regime of historic plate whereby you can be as modified as you want. He has a Renault Fuego 1984 and this new special version of historic plate was sorted for him by the Renault club.

I'll ask pete if he has conditional classic or historic or something entirely different.

[metalhead]

Section 9c:
"Registered competitors using a Non Logbooked car, with full Road registration, are eligible to score points in the championship in the classes nominated"

I'd assume that historic or classic rego probably doesn't qualify as full road registration?

Pretty sure what you describe is the Classic vehicle rego - and though most I've spoken to talk about "whatever modifications you like", everything that I've seen says it is the same requirements as for normal engineering for full rego.

Edit: The usage (under the new logbook scheme) is 60 days/year.

[sambb]

actually yeah they have the dedicated historic class don't they that they'd probably bump you into.

I'll speak to Pete. His Fuego has a citroen 2.2 bottom end, 2.0L head with pretty mega porting/valves/cam etc, awesome custom extractors, straight pipe, autronic efi converted with swirl pots etc, disc brake rear end etc. Despite how that sounds it has turned out more like a show car which is why he bought the Clio. He wanted a cheap to race '****ter' as he put it so I found a cheap Clio that hes now spent over 20K on! Maybe because it is so neat/showy and one of the Renault club guys pretty much wrote him through on that rego type, is why he was able to snare that rego. I'll get the story.
Apparently Grahams CRX is elegable for historic plates soon - talk about dominating a class if that's what he does and they force him into that class for the states. Makes me want to get an old supra/celica, Porsche 924, mk1 MR2 or something. I'm officially an old fart when all the cars I loved growing up are now coming into historic plates. Quite a way to go for the 07' Polo though.

[metalhead]

Not aware of any class for historic rego cars in the hillclimb championship? Later on in the regs:

Cars must have full road registration, registration papers must be presented at scrutineering. The car as presented must be able to pass registration check.

Pete's car sounds like it's probably something that could be engineered without too many dramas, given age, and dependent on emissions/age of new engine, so sounds like an ideal candidate for the Classic Car rego. Be interested to hear whether he had to go through the engineering checks that my mate did though.

[sambb]

Hey anyone know whats more conventional for track cars RE battery isolation - isolated neutral or positive? I've seen plenty of both but thought it was the Negative.

[simon k]

Hey anyone know whats more conventional for track cars RE battery isolation - isolated neutral or positive? I've seen plenty of both but thought it was the Negative.

The CAMS type battery isolator does 2 things, it cuts the +'ve battery lead and earths the ignition coil(s) so that the engine cuts out. Then you attach a cable to the key and poke it out somewhere on the body - when the firey pulls the cable, the key turns and everything shuts off