Whiteline RSB + Liftoff Oversteer

[Timbo]

With respect, Guy, I think care needs to be exercised as to whether those incidents were attributable to the fitment (or not) of a Whiteline RSB to those cars, as that is the implication of your post above. And that is the specific topic of tis thread and poll.

There are corporate reputations involved here, as I'm sure you'll appreciate

[FL00DY]

Here is Al walkers quick demonstration of lift off oversteer in an R32:

(and yes, it happens that quick)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGQHXeBNw7U

Whilst I know Al is rather experienced in that kind event, it seems he was perhaps a bit quicker then he should have been.

[Guy_H]

Whilst I know Al is rather experienced in that kind event, it seems he was perhaps a bit quicker then he should have been.

And the rear was too stiff for this type of circuit.

Timbo, I'm on your side, but you must admit there is a hell of a difference between saying car X is good at Wakefield while car X may oversteer on a windy mountain road with a different surface & no room to cross the double white lines?

[VW GTI]

Guy, does power/torque have anything to do with experiencing it?

ie: would a car with lots of power experience snap oversteer more easily than the same car without the mods?

[Guy_H]

Not really Sam, its more how & when you apply it (like at the wrong time) - remember trying to drive that MR2 with bald tyres around the skidpan? - zero power & multiple spins (and that was trying to get it onto the skidpan )

[VW GTI]

remember trying to drive that MR2 with bald tyres around the skidpan? - zero power & multiple spins (and that was trying to get it onto the skidpan )

I didn't get to drive it, they retired it cos of the metal showing through the rubber problem before it got round to me. Let's just say I would have been able to handle it - no-one can prove otherwise for the moment

[Timbo]

Timbo, I'm on your side, but you must admit there is a hell of a difference between saying car X is good at Wakefield while car X may oversteer on a windy mountain road with a different surface & no room to cross the double white lines?

I'm not saying that. What I am trying to address is the general contention which seems always to be sourced back to comments by Lams and you, that fitting a Whiteline RSB to a Polo GTI will lead to unintended snap oversteer. IMO, there's no evidence to support the contention, which maligns -- generally -- the beneficial effects of fitting of RSBs to Polo GTIs, and specifically, Whiteline.

In my opinion, based on extensive evidence driving on both road and track, and backed up by the experience of MACCAA and others, fitting a Whiteline RSB to the Polo GTI will reduce the more extreme understeer characteristics of the stock car without giving rise to any increased risk of unintended snap oversteer during normal or even 'spirited' road use. The exception to this (as illustrated by the Al Walker video) is where the driver makes radical changes in direction at speed and unbalances the car...the consequences of which can hardly be pinned back to the RSB!

[FL00DY]

I'm not saying that. What I am trying to address is the general contention which seems always to be sourced back to comments by Lams and you, that fitting a Whiteline RSB to a Polo GTI will lead to unintended snap oversteer. IMO, there's no evidence to support the contention, which maligns -- generally -- the beneficial effects of fitting of RSBs to Polo GTIs, and specifically, Whiteline.

In my opinion, based on extensive evidence driving on both road and track, and backed up by the experience of MACCAA and others, fitting a Whiteline RSB to the Polo GTI will reduce the more extreme understeer characteristics of the stock car without giving rise to any increased risk of unintended snap oversteer during normal or even 'spirited' road use. The exception to this (as illustrated by the Al Walker video) is where the driver makes radical changes in direction at speed and unbalances the car...the consequences of which can hardly be pinned back to the RSB!

I love these new smilies

[MACCAA]

We didn't just try it at Wakefield,Guy.Also at Eastern Creek and Winton.I think between the three tracks we covered just about every type of corner!
I did my level best to provoke it,braking into corners and backing off but to no avail.Actually,I was suprised just how benign it was!
You're too kind mentioning my 10 years track experience.....but it's more like 30.......
I think that if you're inducing this type of handling on public roads,you seriously need to slow down.Come along to a track day and do it safely.
Cheers
Len

[Timbo]

You're too kind mentioning my 10 years track experience.....but it's more like 30.......

MACCAA and I are currently searching far and wide for suppliers of RSBs for Zimmer frames

[Guy_H]

Well Tim, I'm sorry I will have to disagree with your point here:

Inherently VW designed the Polo to be a safe car - understeer by its nature teaches & warns you to back off - thats why VW do not install a device that makes ANY of their cars oversteer or anything close (even the more sporty R32 - understeers like a pig in standard form).

Remember the giant Audi TT recall in 1999 - The recall changed the front control arms, put a stiffer front swaybar in & a smaller rear bar (as well as a boot spoiler) to fix the high speed lift off oversteer problem it had (cost Audi hundreds of thousands), but after two deaths from memory, the writing was on the wall.

The journalists hated it, they liked the "sporty" handling before the modifications - but if you watch Top Gear or Fifth Gear or read Motor - the only good car is one that will oversteer full lock on a racetrack .

Your car & Lens have a host of modifications on them, including suspension, brakes, wheels & tyres (or a combination of some of them).

I have to agree with VW in this case, for the average Polo owner, on average Australian roads, with stock tyres (and pressures checked every service or so) - adding a sway bar will (in this case) make the car perform outside its design parameters. VW set the suspension as it is for a reason.

We have had customers (and we get many with various driving skills) have "offs" - I can guarantee you that I have 3 that did a rear sway bar only mod, and had "unintentional" spins on public roads. one did major damage, one did minor damage, the third was lucky & didn't hit anything.

One way to test it independently is to use Safe Drive Training up here in Brisbane - they do all of Fulcrum suspensions "test" work after it leaves the R&D department. They do a combination of high speed & low speed maneuvers.

Instead of arguing about it, why not supply two polo's & have them blind tested by a pro? - I am sure there are benefits to mods, but I have seen too many people have accidents & I don't want any of my customers ending up in a box.

http://www.sdt.com.au/about-safe-drive-programs-sus.html

[Guy_H]

P.S. - our little Polo also did a bit of track work & testing without any swaybars - it never had understeer, nor oversteer at any of the tracks we went to - it cut a 1.12 at Morgan Park, and it also cut a pretty good time at Fairburn Hill climb too which is fast & technical.

My co-driver even stuck two wheels in the dirt off the outside of turn one (?) at Eastern Creek at 200 plus - he had to back off & managed to pull it back in (brown stains) - so it handled pretty well.

Disclaimer - we did have semi slicks, PSS9 coilovers & all drivers had a fair bit of track experience too.

[shaneth]

I have to agree with VW in this case, for the average Polo owner, on average Australian roads, with stock tyres (and pressures checked every service or so) - adding a sway bar will (in this case) make the car perform outside its design parameters. VW set the suspension as it is for a reason.

Yes but whiteline designed the RSB to compliment the rest of the car without making any other mods. I understand if you dont want to recommend them to your customers but the way it is read here is if you put a rsb on your car your going to have an off, no questions asked.

And i agree vw sets parameters for a reason, but generally that is for the everyday joe blow who cant drive a car to save his life can get in one and not have an accident. And i think the majority of car manufactures would do this.

[Guy_H]

I'm not going to take the thread off track and I have not seen any of the Whiteline testing procedures & how they set up their test Polo for high speed maneuvers (Shane - maybe you can ask them for their test procedure please).

But no - I would never recommend one to any Polo customer (ANY BRAND) unless it had a balanced, matched front one. - That goes for Golf V, R32, Golf IV as well.

personally I would rather see the money spent :

A: Upgrade polo Brakes
B: Upgrade spring rates & Dampers (matched

Anyone is welcome to stick one on, its not how I would advise my customers to spend their cash.

[99gti]

I'm not going to take the thread off track and I have not seen any of the Whiteline testing procedures & how they set up their test Polo for high speed maneuvers (Shane - maybe you can ask them for their test procedure please).

But no - I would never recommend one to any Polo customer (ANY BRAND) unless it had a balanced, matched front one. - That goes for Golf V, R32, Golf IV as well.

personally I would rather see the money spent :

A: Upgrade polo Brakes
B: Upgrade spring rates & Dampers (matched

Anyone is welcome to stick one on, its not how I would advise my customers to spend their cash.

Hence why I did both at the same time

If I'm not being a silly bugger and induce over steer, I will generaly get all 4 wheels drfting before either end lets go. In short, it gives me more than sufficient warning to say slow down...