Retune - the last mod?

[parso_rex]

No adaptive tuning? Now this is interesting...

So after a tune is installed for the first time, it's been said numerous times it takes a while to bed in or adapt.
I know of Atleast 1 person who reset their APR tune before a dyno's run as they felt this would give them the best results
I've also read numerous times that a tune can feel lazy and can be better after a hard run.

So this is all wrong? I agree about environmental changes, especially heat and humidity, but I was definitely under the impression there were coding elements that tuners did not touch and are dynamic.

I agree about more boost not being the answer, more boost in combination with more timing without upsetting the knock sensors is the right direction IMO.

Actually Ben, Guy is quite correct particularly if say the intercooler isn't up to the task. Forget the initial adaption that's something else again, this is more the case of the ECU deciding that it can no longer operate at its maximum whilst a certain condition exists - eg in this case the example is air temp but it could also be a number of other things. So it then decides to remove timing or whatever else is needed to reduce the effect of that particular parameter. You can program in the values to which it will move and for want of a better word the sensitivity at which it will decide to reduce(even increase) a value.
So, some tunes may run a very conservative arrangement where the tune may pull timing at the slightest hint of detonation or air temp rise, water temp, whatever. Others may decide to run a more aggressive arrangement where it holds onto values longer. You might for example have a really great performing tune that switches to lower values at the hint of trouble while the next one is lesser all over but holds its power very well. Both are good its just depends on what your going to use your car for, track car, street car, combination etc
Go the K04, injectors and if its true about your FMIC do that too, forget the K03 its not worth the effort.The ME7 is great and doesn't need as much time to sort as the 3 or 5 which lack the wideband and map sensor

[VWindahouse]

Guys please remember Ben is not looking for a $2000+ spend maybe even $4 with a new FMIC which is what you are all suggesting.

[s4mmie]

what kind of money are you looking at for a new tune, $1000 give or take? Might give you a few kw. I think the general consensus is its not worth it; save the money and use it for tangible hardware upgrades. But hey, it's not our car and if you think you'll be happier with the result/$ then get all the little mods you mentioned sorted and do it I know I've thought about the same thing with my tune (APR, not sure what stage )

[kaanage]

Guys please remember Ben is not looking for a $2000+ spend maybe even $4 with a new FMIC which is what you are all suggesting.

+1 Ben stated pretty clearly that he wanted to optimise what he's already got - not make (more) wholesale changes to his pog

[h100vw]

what kind of money are you looking at for a new tune, $1000 give or take? Might give you a few kw. I think the general consensus is its not worth it; save the money and use it for tangible hardware upgrades. But hey, it's not our car and if you think you'll be happier with the result/$ then get all the little mods you mentioned sorted and do it I know I've thought about the same thing with my tune (APR, not sure what stage )

What's give or take? $650 for Phase 1 and $750 for Phase 2.

No charge if he doesn't feel/see the benefit. Not too risky really, I think.

This is a never ending debate, proving how versatile the basic engine and ECU is and how tolerant it is to changes.

There's plenty of ways to get more power as everyone knows. Who is to say which is the best one?

I agree that a K04 would be great but when you buy the car and get started with the modifications, there's always going to be an element of recovering old ground.

For example you spend $20 K on the car and while your bank account gets back on it's feet, you get a stage 1 tune. Regretting your impatience, you then splash out on a downpipe, exhaust, FMIC, intake etc one at a time. Swiftly taking care of another 4-5K plus some fitting costs.

For me an old argument then arrives, should you have just bought a faster car to start with?

There couldn't be a single person on this forum, that hasn't carried out mods to their car, in a less than perfect order.

Ask anyone that has made an inquiry to me about a tune. The first or second question I ask is will they be modding further down the line. I always advise getting all the hardware first, to avoid doing things twice. Especially, if you are paying a workshop to do the fitting.

Gavin

[noone]

These last few posts are very valuable.

Thanks Mark (Parso), that makes a lot of sense to me. It also helps me understand why people might describe a tune as being more aggressive.

I'm not after a peak power, strong torque is what I enjoy in the Polo. I believe my current tune may allow for more correction than some others, given I've not had any mechanical issues, I'd like to push it harder.

If APR could offer anything in terms of modified tuning, this would also have been am option.

Mark, what are your thoughts on a custom dyno style tune compared to my 'off-the-shelf' map? What do you charge for this sort of work?

[Guy_H]

Ben, - If you want more power & regain your lost boost, put the stock intercooler back on, sell the Forge one on ebay - thats a very cheap starting position.

There are several people on here that can "tweak" your tune, but to get it 100% spot on (considering different hardware), you are going to need to invest in dyno time & serious data logging.

Obviously this is also going to show exactly where you are now, and whether you go forward or backwards with calibration changes. Not like a one off random dyno's weeks apart.

This will cost you money to do (dyno time), but to move forward, I don't see how you can without spending some cash (and as has been repeated a dozen times - put the cash towards a K04!)

[parso_rex]

Well I guess the advantage is that we can try and bring in boost a quickly as possible and hopefully hold it for longer in the top end and the tune is of course tailored too that. That all depends on what is happening with the current tune though as it may already be pretty good especially as the engine combo has been around for a while, kind of like what you are now seeing with the S3/R's atm and Mkv GTI's. There is only so much you can do and they are likely to be pretty close at least in the peak power area anyway. This is the risk you take and I always try and point this out to people.

As for the price in a case like yours we would start again from scratch because we can't edit the current tune and even if that were an option we would usually throw the tune away and start again anyway. When I say start again we start from a good base and then spend time optimising things to suit how your car performs. This of course takes time, I'd love to be able to throw one file on and have smiles all round but unfortunately for me it doesn't work like that. Actually it can, I could just put a Superchips file on - and you never know it may well equal what you already have
For us to do it the normal price would start at $1k we just dont do it for less than that for a full tune usually the full on tunes are round the $1500 and eveyone is pretty happy with the outcome, this is simply because it takes time road dyno and so on. The 1.8T's we do a bit less as we have more files available to start from.
(cough K04 you know you want one)

[noone]

Cheers

Guy, I know you saw issues with a Forge intercooler from a Polo, was this witnessed on more than 1 Polo? As that was a few years back, have recent versions been shown to have the same issues?

[s4mmie]

Another Q for Guy in the spirit of the thread; With the APR software for the Polo, are there different stages of software for the K03 setup? I had my pog chipped when it was stock but since fitting the R1 diverter, intake and turbo-back exhaust I wondered if there was a different version of the software to take advantage of these mods. I remember asking James when I was in there a while back and he said you could load up a different version but I can't remember the details...

[noone]

There are 2 options, both considered stage 1.

Stage 2 is the K04.

[s4mmie]

Mmm that's interesting. Which version do you have at the moment?
I would like to figure out which version I have. When Guy loaded it up he told me there were a few maps and he would load up the one that most people liked. Probably a more aggressive version?
The only reason I mentioned it was I thought if they offered an adjusted K03 tune to take advantage of the exhaust, etc, it might be the answer for you ..and me

[noone]

I have v2, it's focused towards mid range torque. V1 was focused on top end power, probably better at the track.

[Guy_H]

Cheers

Guy, I know you saw issues with a Forge intercooler from a Polo, was this witnessed on more than 1 Polo? As that was a few years back, have recent versions been shown to have the same issues?

I know of 4 people who removed the Forge to regain their losses - but that was 2+ years ago - not sure if the design was changed or not (I hope it was)

[Guy_H]

Mmm that's interesting. Which version do you have at the moment?
I would like to figure out which version I have. When Guy loaded it up he told me there were a few maps and he would load up the one that most people liked. Probably a more aggressive version?
The only reason I mentioned it was I thought if they offered an adjusted K03 tune to take advantage of the exhaust, etc, it might be the answer for you ..and me

We have several K03 files, V2 & V1 are whats normally used - as noone mentioned, most people prefer V2 for the street, it's punchier down low, and we prefer the V1 for track, smoother power curve. We have an exhaust specific version (which yours is - V2)

No advantage in either when it comes to power - both make near identical power & torque.