Disable ESP

[GT3]

I know the conventional wisdom is to turn it off and maximise power and performance. Everytime I turn it off, I get much slower times bc I just get wheelspin, eg .7sec slower 1/4 mile, non-stop wheel-spin coming out of cnrs on race tracks until I hit 3rd. With it on, sure - there is a degree of compromise, and I can detect it cutting off torque/power etc, but without it - all the car would be good for is burn-out comps.

[FL00DY]

Alright, easy test. Next time its wet, find a nice open space... don't have to be going fast... give it abit of a scandinavian flick... the back end will start coming round, then sort itself out, every time. Whenever the back steps out you hear the back brakes going... the car straightens up, and all is right with the world.

Something is sorting it out... and it isn't the driver. Cause i can't control brakes individually.

ahhh ok. Well I did a skid pan day the other week, and mostly used the handbrake for oversteer. But on the couple of times I tried a scando flick it didn't work as well, but that could have been my lack of skill

[SoVeReIgN]

I know the conventional wisdom is to turn it off and maximise power and performance. Everytime I turn it off, I get much slower times bc I just get wheelspin, eg .7sec slower 1/4 mile, non-stop wheel-spin coming out of cnrs on race tracks until I hit 3rd. With it on, sure - there is a degree of compromise, and I can detect it cutting off torque/power etc, but without it - all the car would be good for is burn-out comps.

Sorry dude if you are good with the throttle you will always be quicker than ESP cutting power. Same way you can stop quicker without using ABS (Well, some people can with alot of practice in controlled conditions)

Mashing the throttle coming out of a corner on a high power, high torque, lightweight front wheel drive car is a very silly thing to do if you are trying to go quickly.

[GT3]

Mashing the throttle coming out of a corner on a high power, high torque, lightweight front wheel drive car is a very silly thing to do if you are trying to go quickly.

Your analogy about ABS is interesting, and true applying the brakes to threshold levels prior to ABS kicking in is the way to do it. But preventing the wheels from spinning in testing conditions such as a flying lap, particularly with massive deceleration coming into a difficult and tricky tight bend, then powering back into a straight isn't as delicate a procedure as you describe. The car is running at very high RPMS and the threshold between the wheels spinning and keeping grip can be very narrow. In most instances, you can avoid ESP kicking in - but having it there to retart spin in the early stages when it occurs can work well. Trying to recover momentum after the wheels lose traction will cost you time.

So Dave, how long have you been racing cars? any best times?

[SoVeReIgN]

Your analogy about ABS is interesting, and true applying the brakes to threshold levels prior to ABS kicking in is the way to do it. But preventing the wheels from spinning in testing conditions such as a flying lap, particularly with massive deceleration coming into a difficult and tricky tight bend, then powering back into a straight isn't as delicate a procedure as you describe. The car is running at very high RPMS and the threshold between the wheels spinning and keeping grip can be very narrow. In most instances, you can avoid ESP kicking in - but having it there to retart spin in the early stages when it occurs can work well. Trying to recover momentum after the wheels lose traction will cost you time.

So Dave, how long have you been racing cars? any best times?

My track experience is irrelevant - You say you run slower lap times with ESP off because you spin the entire way through 2nd and into third coming out of a corner - This says to me you're just mashing the throttle and when ESP is on you're relying on it to keep you in line.

I'm not saying it isn't a fine art, but you'll be quicker. ESP is a safety aide not a racing aide.

Also - Not sure how the Polo's ESP works, but its either going to be using the brakes (Not what you want on the track) or cutting the throttle (Not what you want on a turbo car trying to keep a turbo spinning)

Cheers,
Dave

[GT3]

Neither situation is perfect, with or without it on, there will be compromises. If your running serious power in a light FWD, there will be an increased likelihood that the tyres will break traction (specially chipped Polo GTIs). My point is that you can work with the ESP, but if traction is not an issue, sure, switch it off, why wouldn't you?

[Funkdancer]

I was under the impression that any car that wanted to meet the 5 Star ANCAP safety standard must have ESP.

That's from next year's ANCAP requirements (FINALLY!!). The "mandatory" I'm speaking of is the one that says you can't sell a car without seatbelts. Seeing that ESP is the biggest safety invention since the belt this makes perfect sense (well to me at least).

[SoVeReIgN]

That's from next year's ANCAP requirements (FINALLY!!). The "mandatory" I'm speaking of is the one that says you can't sell a car without seatbelts. Seeing that ESP is the biggest safety invention since the belt this makes perfect sense (well to me at least).

I don't agree with it being mandatory.

It costs a royal ****load create an ESP program - FPV and HSV haven't had it for a while because I read somewhere bosch need 3 or 4 cars (of each model) for a year and something rediculous like 5 million dollars per model to add the program into their ECU.

Means that
a) Cost of cars goes up, especially lower volume models - Manufacturers aren't going to let the cost eat into their profit margin
b) Many lower volume models will cease to exist
c) We have incrased international platform sharing. (ie - Daewoo Lacetti being rebadged as Holden Epica) - Whether that is a good or bad thing you decide - I just prefer abit of variety in the market - I will be dissapointed come the day that each manufacturer has mabye ~5 models worldwide.

[Funkdancer]

Sovereign, Wheels wrote that in a car that has 4 channel ABS, the additional cost is about $200 for e.g. the Bosch ESP module.

[SoVeReIgN]

Sovereign, Wheels wrote that in a car that has 4 channel ABS, the additional cost is about $200 for e.g. the Bosch ESP module.

The $$$ figure will depend on the amount of cars the developing cost is spread across..

It might cost $200 on a Camry which is going to sell hundreds of thousands of units.. But what will it cost for a car that isn't so popular..?

And is that figure just the module or does it factor in programming etc?

[Timbo]

Actually, I think you'll find the systems are common across many cars. ESP/DSC are basically just ECU additions that modulate throttle/braking based on sensor inputs (yaw/wheelspin/wheel lock-up). Those sensors are pretty standard. The changes relate to taking that sensor data and integrating it with the engine ECU. I think one factor holding back certain models has been the absence of throttle-by-wire....as well as the continued use of old ECUs.

[Glide_GTI]

I think seb said you could turn it off completely by taking out the fuse for the ABS or something like that, one of the fuses.

[xposdu]

As someone stated, if you turn off the ESP it wont kick back on unless you have really got yourself into trouble.

Suggestion to the guy losing traction through second, back off the throttle, just because you have nailed the throttle doesnt mean you will be quicker. Its a fine art dancing any vehicle around a track, but with a bit of practice you will always be faster with ESP off. My suggestion, control your right foot.

[GT3]

My suggestion, control your right foot.

My suggestion - assumptions shouldn't be made about how I use the throttle, my initial comments were taken far too literally. Unless you've been in the situations I've been in and seen how my car responds with the ESP switched off, you wouldn't know. Until then, the self-proclaimed experts should refrain from making such commentary.

[Funkdancer]

I'd like to support GT3 in a way by chipping in that the turbo and our light vehicle weight makes the right foot control somewhat tricky.

I would think that it would take someone very experienced to keep the boost up to maximum output _just_ on the side of not generating excessive wheelspin out of a corner with uneven surface (e.g. throw in the red white kerb etc).

This is where the all natural Civic R would have a nice advantage, well for us mere mortals anyway

If you can do it properly, all the power to you

(Haven't been on the track in my APRed Polo myself yet so not sure where I belong)