Octane Booster Use (New gti onwner)

[gtimonkey]

Octane booster

Hi hotcar

Welcome

I assume that you mean this sort of product

http://www.nulon.com.au/products/Pro-Strength_Octane_Booster/

http://www.nulon.com.au/files/msds/MSDS-pso-Pro-Strength_Octane_Booster.pdf

If you ever need to know what is in something the best place to look is the Material Safety Data Sheet (it is required by law). No lead in this one (sorry Stuwey)

• naphtha petroleum, heavy, hydrodesulfurised 64742-82-1. >60%
• manganese 2- methylcyclopentadienyl tricarbonyl 12108-13-3 <20%
• naphthalene 91-20-3 <1%^

Naphtha - is essentially petrol (or maybe even toluene if you are lucky) in this case it is being used as a solvent for Methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT) - this is the gear that boosts the octane. The rest is moth balls (naphthalene) an old trick for gaining some cheap octane points (I know people who used to dissolve moth balls into petrol - mainly a go kart scene thing)

Read about MMT here.. I do not personally think that it is too bad for your car just be very careful not to get it on you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylcyclopentadienyl_manganese_tricarbonyl

Toulene is fantastic stuff Octane wise (120 !) in terms of toxicity I do not think that it is any worse than what is in that octane booster - it occurs in petrol anyway particularly high octane stuff. (exposure to MMT in octane booster will kill you quicker, my grand dad used to wash his overalls in toluene). In the air pollution trade it belongs to a family of aromatics (Benzene, Toluene, Xylene, Ethyl Benzene BTXE). Aromatics all have great octanes around 120 (due to delocalised electrons for the chemists out there) but are nasty. Particularly benzene - it is a proven carcinogen (do not wash your hands in petrol!). The main reason adulteration of fuel is illegal is taxation, fuel is taxed by volume and the government likes collecting its excise. From an environmental standpoint BTEX are nasty - they are pollutants in their own right and active smog precursors.

I doubt that much damage has been done to cars from adding toluene - but a dodgy servo is probably not being particularly kind with your petrol (ie they probably add whatever they can get their hands on eg a good source of toluene is paint solvent).

Back 10-15 years ago it was possible to get boosters with Lead (remember 104, 104+). Tetra ethyl lead is amazing stuff for Octane boosting (unless you are a child living next to a busy road) developed by the same guy who brought CFC's to the world - Thomas Midgley Jr. Lead will kill your Catalytic converter (poison your catalyst) so in addition to emitting something that poisons people (lead) your car would make more air quality nasties until you replace the cat. Removal of lead from fuels is seen as one of the great air quality victories of recent years and credited with increasing average IQs, reducing violence and all sorts of other outcomes for communities (seriously). Lead is not good for you and even worse for children.

In terms of the actual Octane of your fuel - I trust adding the booster as much as I trust the quality premium unleaded at my servo. The car as pretty good systems to protect from poor quality fuel (it will retard the timing) you will notice it as a reduction in power. Premium fuel probably has the same stuff in it. Personally I use BP ultimate when I can get it (make sure it is fresh - petrol does go off).

Apologies for the long post (I am procrastinating from real work) - but as a chemical engineer who deals with fuels a lot I figured that it was worth chipping in.

[gtimonkey]

homebrew octane boosters

A good writeup on homebrew octane boosters from a US prespective

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/octane-booster-info-124750.html

[hotcar1600]

thanks for all your help guys

i will research it, i believe that i can sufficiently measure the fuel and the octane

besides i would get the car tuned with the petrol octane mix that i will be running all the time

my company has no probelm with me adding the octane booster as it is my familys's own company its just that I have had this account with this particular servo for years and due to its location there is no demand for 98 octane fuel

im going to talk to the tuner (i.e. whoever installs the chip) and ask on thier opinion

and im definately not going to reconsider buying a new car - i just got the polo gti and I must say i am impressed with its handling and its very usuale power range. worst case scenario i will just go for the premium unleaded anyways

i will read all the articles posted - however, any more information on this topic would be appreciated

i have had the car for a day and i have already got the bug - more power is a must a some stage in the near future

[hotcar1600]

gti monkey

thanks for you informative response - the longer the post the better

i do trust the petrol at the servo as it is mobil fuel and i have a good repore with the owner and the trunover of the station is good so fuel does not sit there for too long

i think that all the nasties people talk about are from octane boosters of the past i.e. blocking cats etc

question though - to all users

if you are running a 98 octane tune and you get a bad patch of fuel (say 95 octane or less) will the car detect this and change the timing to suit?? or does the chip do away with those safety measures??

i thinkk that this question is applicable to all people running a chip

cheer

[ACTGTI]

Found this:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-e61-m5-touring-discussion/125316-octane-boost-causes-early-plug-failure.html

I have also heard similar issues before where dealers have picked up on the use of octane boosters by the colour of plugs and in most cases I think warranties are void if use of additives are found. Probably harmless used very rarely, but I can't imagine it being too good used regularly.

[Golf Houso]

Hi hotcar

Welcome

I assume that you mean this sort of product

http://www.nulon.com.au/products/Pro-Strength_Octane_Booster/

http://www.nulon.com.au/files/msds/MSDS-pso-Pro-Strength_Octane_Booster.pdf

If you ever need to know what is in something the best place to look is the Material Safety Data Sheet (it is required by law). No lead in this one (sorry Stuwey)

• naphtha petroleum, heavy, hydrodesulfurised 64742-82-1. >60%
• manganese 2- methylcyclopentadienyl tricarbonyl 12108-13-3 <20%
• naphthalene 91-20-3 <1%^

Naphtha - is essentially petrol (or maybe even toluene if you are lucky) in this case it is being used as a solvent for Methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT) - this is the gear that boosts the octane. The rest is moth balls (naphthalene) an old trick for gaining some cheap octane points (I know people who used to dissolve moth balls into petrol - mainly a go kart scene thing)

Read about MMT here.. I do not personally think that it is too bad for your car just be very careful not to get it on you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylcyclopentadienyl_manganese_tricarbonyl

Toulene is fantastic stuff Octane wise (120 !) in terms of toxicity I do not think that it is any worse than what is in that octane booster - it occurs in petrol anyway particularly high octane stuff. (exposure to MMT in octane booster will kill you quicker, my grand dad used to wash his overalls in toluene). In the air pollution trade it belongs to a family of aromatics (Benzene, Toluene, Xylene, Ethyl Benzene BTXE). Aromatics all have great octanes around 120 (due to delocalised electrons for the chemists out there) but are nasty. Particularly benzene - it is a proven carcinogen (do not wash your hands in petrol!). The main reason adulteration of fuel is illegal is taxation, fuel is taxed by volume and the government likes collecting its excise. From an environmental standpoint BTEX are nasty - they are pollutants in their own right and active smog precursors.

I doubt that much damage has been done to cars from adding toluene - but a dodgy servo is probably not being particularly kind with your petrol (ie they probably add whatever they can get their hands on eg a good source of toluene is paint solvent).

Back 10-15 years ago it was possible to get boosters with Lead (remember 104, 104+). Tetra ethyl lead is amazing stuff for Octane boosting (unless you are a child living next to a busy road) developed by the same guy who brought CFC's to the world - Thomas Midgley Jr. Lead will kill your Catalytic converter (poison your catalyst) so in addition to emitting something that poisons people (lead) your car would make more air quality nasties until you replace the cat. Removal of lead from fuels is seen as one of the great air quality victories of recent years and credited with increasing average IQs, reducing violence and all sorts of other outcomes for communities (seriously). Lead is not good for you and even worse for children.

In terms of the actual Octane of your fuel - I trust adding the booster as much as I trust the quality premium unleaded at my servo. The car as pretty good systems to protect from poor quality fuel (it will retard the timing) you will notice it as a reduction in power. Premium fuel probably has the same stuff in it. Personally I use BP ultimate when I can get it (make sure it is fresh - petrol does go off).

Apologies for the long post (I am procrastinating from real work) - but as a chemical engineer who deals with fuels a lot I figured that it was worth chipping in.

Most interesting and informative post I have read in a long time, kudos to you mate!

[DeanB]

I used to run Karts about 15 yrs ago and for the high compression reed valve Intercontinental engines we would mix toluene or MTBE (Methyl tert-butyl ether) with what was then premium at the time (95 Octane)

Used to work on the principle that 1L of 95RON with 0.3L Toluene worked out to 100RON. MTBE at the same ratio produced a fractionally higher RON but slightly harder for me to get in decent volumes, whereas Toluene I could obtain like water.

Used to work as an R&D Chemist so it wasn't hard to get hold of chemicals, BUT I was always VERY careful using the stuff as Toluene is not water. As gtimonkey said and it is very true most of these additives are very dangerous and you really should be careful when you use them ... avoid skin contact and try not to breathe the vapours, especially with Toluene - wear a mask !

Never tried the mothball trick ... knew some who ran it, but it seemed very low tech and dodgey watching people crush up mothballs to then dissolve into fuel drums

[h100vw]

if you are running a 98 octane tune and you get a bad patch of fuel (say 95 octane or less) will the car detect this and change the timing to suit?? or does the chip do away with those safety measures??

i think that this question is applicable to all people running a chip

cheer

No chip will remove the built in safety features. You can log into the ECU with VAG-COM and see exactly what the ECU is doing to defend the engine.

Running a bad batch of fuel or even filling up with 95 will not have the engine fall out on the road. The ECU will back off the timing in response to any knock it detects.

Having said that, I'd not be doing it on a regular basis.

I have to question the point of tuning the car then putting below par fuel in it?

Each to their own.

The other thing you could do with a VAG-COM lead, even a cheapy ebay one, is pull timing out yourself.

http://www.unitronic.ca/UNISetting.php

You can drop the boost with this too.

DISCLAIMER. Don't come running to me if you do something silly and the motor breaks.

Gavin

[Lomo]

Who cares if the motor breaks! as long as the engine survives

How bad is toluene for your health compared to other solvents? I accidentally got high off it once while patching the hypalon rubber on my zodiac boat for about 2 hours, I hopped into the shower and had to hold on to the walls. I have to patch it up again soon so will be more careful with it this time.

[DeanB]

Who cares if the motor breaks! as long as the engine survives

How bad is toluene for your health compared to other solvents? I accidentally got high off it once while patching the hypalon rubber on my zodiac boat for about 2 hours, I hopped into the shower and had to hold on to the walls. I have to patch it up again soon so will be more careful with it this time.

Is suspected of doing kidney damage, the link also mention, liver, etc ... look up the MSDS - it is not pleasant stuff - wear a face mask next time !!!

[h100vw]

Is suspected of doing kidney damage, the link also mention, liver, etc ... look up the MSDS - it is not pleasant stuff - wear a face mask next time !!!

We used to wash PRC off our hands with it, when I was in the RAF years ago.

Then again we used Swarfega which is also bad for you.

Gavin

[DeanB]

What did you guys use on the F111 fuel cells ? Remember there was a story about that a few years ago as well ... there was some scary stuff in the past before the era of litigation ! I can think of some of the chemicals we "played" with and the conditions we used them under both at work and uni .... touch wood nothing has caught up with me yet !

[hotcar1600]

i will not being putting below par fuel in my car - hence the reason for asking about octane boosters

i am going to ask the chip tuning guys there thoughts and worst casr cenario i get a tune for 95 ron fuel

[h100vw]

Probably the same stuff. A 2 part mix, that comes out brown. Comes in a couple of variants that take different times to go off. You can thin it with MEK. Another nasty fluid.

Sticks to anything and everything.

Gavin

[gtimonkey]

high octane fuel

I have been trying to work out how they bring up the octane of Shell vmax and BP ultimate.

MSDS do not help much - below a certain percentage they can vague (propriety performance enhancers, odds are that they are putting some MMT in) particularly if the substance is not the key safety risk associated with the product.

The technical spec has a little more to go on

http://www.tds.bp.com.au/pdf%5C5556_M98ULv2.pdf

Upto 42% Aromatics - it seems to me that BP Ultimate in some cases is mostly toluene and friends minus the benzene (there is 1% upper limit on benzene).

With respect to Toluene being dangerous, it is not that bad – a one off exposures are probably not going to harm you.

When you think about petrol it is truly amazing stuff, 1 L mixed with the right amount of air has the same energy as 4 sticks of dynamite. (Part of the reason it is so hard to make a good electric car is that you cannot beat the energy content of hydrocarbons). It is worth treating with some respect.

I think that guy (APR dealer in Brisbane) helped a New Caladonian on the forum chip his car. He was in a similar situation with only being able to get 95 octane fuel. It is annoying really that the detuned version of the 1.8T 20v in the polos needs 98 octane fuel. You think when they were hiding 50 hp they could have made it run on cheaper petrol at the same time