Cold starts - secondary air injector pump?

[JonP01]

Does the 77STI model have one of these pumps? I recently posted about noises I was hearing when my engine was warm but in diagnosing those problems I also came across a strange noise on cold startup which I don't recall ever hearing before. It is a sort of whirring / whining type noise that seems to be coming from somewhere under the airbox / battery area. It always completely stops when the cold engine fast idle drops down to around the warm idle range - so it lasts maybe a minute or thereabouts from turning the key first thing in the morning. When I googled this it came up with links about faulty or dying secondary air pumps but I did not find one specifically mentioning the 6R Polo.

Does anyone else get this noise? It is always a pain in the backside when you have a cold start noise because it pretty much means leaving the car overnight at the dealers. I was thinking of trying to record it first and emailing them the recording, but I don't have any proper recording equipment. Nevertheless, I'd be interested to know if anyone has noticed similar issues and whether it constitutes an "official" problem in the eyes of VW or not.

[tay113]

HI, i wonder if its the same noise make from my gti when its cold start and driving. Sound like its coming from the fuel pump.I can hear it each time i accelerate .I have left the car overnight at the vw workshop but they couldnt pick it up.Still a puzzle.
Any idea, guys?
thanks.william

[JonP01]

HI, i wonder if its the same noise make from my gti when its cold start and driving. Sound like its coming from the fuel pump.I can hear it each time i accelerate .I have left the car overnight at the vw workshop but they couldnt pick it up.Still a puzzle.
Any idea, guys?
thanks.william

Well I have it booked into the dealer for Wednesday morning but I have to leave it there Tuesday night so they can do the cold start on Wednesday. But as with your experience I am fearing they will either not hear it or will say it is normal for the model (but I don't see how it could be normal since it started making these noises all in a split second on one particular day and never made them in the first 18 months of ownership). I thought I had resolved the noise it makes when it is warm by tightening up the insulation clips on the firewall but the noise is actually getting worse - it is just as loud now a week later as it was a week ago when the insulation was hanging a bit lose. I'm wondering if the noise gets worse as the weather gets colder since it is significantly cooler and less humid this weekend than last weekend.

I've tried to listen more carefully and the noise seems to be coming from somewhere under the rear end of the intercooler pipe to the intake manifold. So it might have something to do with anything around the intake manifold area as I can't hear any issues at the airbox itself, airbox to turbo piping or the turbo itself. And all pipes are properly secured and there are no splits in the pipes. If I had found a lose pipe or split in a pipe I would have been happy because that would certainly have explained all the new noises.

And the wastegate is fine - I can hear the noise the actuator makes in sympathy with the engine vibration and it is a completely different sound - that is a light rattle type sound that does not particularly annoy me whereas this sound is a continuous sound like there is a dry bearing (warm running) or metal scraping on metal (cold start). It sounds like there is a fan turbine with a rusted bearing somewhere around the intake manifold area (and no, the sound is nowhere near the turbo!).

I'm just hoping the dealer can sort it out because it's got the point where I have to wear musician's ear plugs to drive the thing the noise is of such an so objectionable nature. And anyone in the car with me wonders what is broken "in the engine". Luckily they don't hear the cold start noise - that is even more disturbing.

Anyway, if they actually identify and fix the issues I will let you know what they say. I've written them a page long letter explaining everything in (hopefully) sufficient detail that they at least should be able to hear what I am on about and know roughly where to start looking for it. What worries me the most is that having googled all possible permutations of this sort of noise I am hearing in VW engines I am coming up with no links whatsoever. The closest internet discussions to what I am experiencing seem to be Golf 2.0 litre turbo owners complaining about inlet manifolds needing replacing due to faulty intake valves. But nothing specifically regarding the 77TSI or related engines.

[tay113]

Well I have it booked into the dealer for Wednesday morning but I have to leave it there Tuesday night so they can do the cold start on Wednesday. But as with your experience I am fearing they will either not hear it or will say it is normal for the model (but I don't see how it could be normal since it started making these noises all in a split second on one particular day and never made them in the first 18 months of ownership). I thought I had resolved the noise it makes when it is warm by tightening up the insulation clips on the firewall but the noise is actually getting worse - it is just as loud now a week later as it was a week ago when the insulation was hanging a bit lose. I'm wondering if the noise gets worse as the weather gets colder since it is significantly cooler and less humid this weekend than last weekend.

I've tried to listen more carefully and the noise seems to be coming from somewhere under the rear end of the intercooler pipe to the intake manifold. So it might have something to do with anything around the intake manifold area as I can't hear any issues at the airbox itself, airbox to turbo piping or the turbo itself. And all pipes are properly secured and there are no splits in the pipes. If I had found a lose pipe or split in a pipe I would have been happy because that would certainly have explained all the new noises.

And the wastegate is fine - I can hear the noise the actuator makes in sympathy with the engine vibration and it is a completely different sound - that is a light rattle type sound that does not particularly annoy me whereas this sound is a continuous sound like there is a dry bearing (warm running) or metal scraping on metal (cold start). It sounds like there is a fan turbine with a rusted bearing somewhere around the intake manifold area (and no, the sound is nowhere near the turbo!).

I'm just hoping the dealer can sort it out because it's got the point where I have to wear musician's ear plugs to drive the thing the noise is of such an so objectionable nature. And anyone in the car with me wonders what is broken "in the engine". Luckily they don't hear the cold start noise - that is even more disturbing.

Anyway, if they actually identify and fix the issues I will let you know what they say. I've written them a page long letter explaining everything in (hopefully) sufficient detail that they at least should be able to hear what I am on about and know roughly where to start looking for it. What worries me the most is that having googled all possible permutations of this sort of noise I am hearing in VW engines I am coming up with no links whatsoever. The closest internet discussions to what I am experiencing seem to be Golf 2.0 litre turbo owners complaining about inlet manifolds needing replacing due to faulty intake valves. But nothing specifically regarding the 77TSI or related engines.

HI , i have actually heard once on their courtesy car loan the next morning and it happen to be a 77TSI.Strangely it always happen when its cold drive.All the best.

[JonP01]

HI , i have actually heard once on their courtesy car loan the next morning and it happen to be a 77TSI.Strangely it always happen when its cold drive.All the best.

That is why I am prepared for the "normal for the model" line from the dealer I don't think they will be interested to know that it never made these noises before. I even remember the car I test drove at the dealership. It made a strange noise whenever the power steering was used at low speed. I presume that was "normal for the model" too, even though mine doesn't do it.

On the one hand I could even live (unhappily) with the normal for the model thing save for the fact that what the heck do I do when I trade it in? The dealer is going to drive it and wonder what the heck is wrong with it. I'll just have to try and find an 80 year old salesman with really bad hearing I can just see it now. $4,995 trade in value.

I'd intended to keep this Polo for many years (absolute minimum 10) but I've now become concerned about doing that on account of the fact that I simply cannot afford the sort of ongoing repairs outside of the warranty that I see people are having to get done inside warranty. I mean, just because it is out of warranty doesn't mean it suddenly becomes immune to things breaking on it that happen during a warranty period, so there is no reason to believe out of warranty it is going to be any better than when it is in warranty. I can afford the ongoing servicing - no problem whatsoever. But I can't afford new turbos, new inlet manifolds, new pumps, new whatever. I simply did not budget for expensive repairs outside warranty because over the last 30 years, no car I have owned as has ever cost me more than routine servicing and shock absorbers (at around 100,000 km). Worse problem I've ever had since my first car in 1985 was a leaking slave cylinder - a very minor repair.

Depending on what the problem actually is and what the dealer does or does not do about it will determine my financial strategy for the next 17 months (length of remaining warranty). I might have to end up saving every single cent I possibly can on the premise that I am not brave enough to own the car once it is out of warranty. I just don't think that noises that sound like something metal grinding away inside the engine are a cheap fix, and I'd end up paying for that if it happened in October next year.

[JonP01]

Yay...finally found a YouTube video that has precisely the same sound as my problem. I just went on a drive earlier tonight then opened the bonnet and tried the good old tube to the ear trick. Worked perfectly and I narrowed the sound down to the part being driven by the V-belt at the rear of the engine. I don't know what the part is but given this YouTube video depicts precisely the same problem I am guessing it is my water pump.

VW 2.0 TSI high pitch noise / sound / howl. Water pump failing. - YouTube

[Snail Style]

Waterpump/supercharger pulley area. Waterpumps tend to have issues on these.

[nomadx38]

Waterpump/supercharger pulley area. Waterpumps tend to have issues on these.

Could it be possible that your timing chain is subject to the recall? That's in the exact same area and will make a high pitched metallic pinging sound.

I used to have a intermittent high pitch sound coming from the water pump (up to about 20,000) since then it's gone and haven't had a problem since.(now at 75,000) actually I have been getting less problems with mine as it has been getting older - or i consider those "problems" no lt to be problems anymore, like the turbo wastegate rattle. Honestly I have never had many doubts that my engine will make it to 120,000km relatively hassle free...the DSG on the other hand.

[JonP01]

Could it be possible that your timing chain is subject to the recall? That's in the exact same area and will make a high pitched metallic pinging sound.

I used to have a intermittent high pitch sound coming from the water pump (up to about 20,000) since then it's gone and haven't had a problem since.(now at 75,000) actually I have been getting less problems with mine as it has been getting older - or i consider those "problems" no lt to be problems anymore, like the turbo wastegate rattle. Honestly I have never had many doubts that my engine will make it to 120,000km relatively hassle free...the DSG on the other hand.

I did point my highly sophisticated stethoscope all around the timing chain area but heard nothing untoward. Of course I could not do any testing except at idle without any load. Infact I listened out for things all over the engine bay and nothing stood out apart from the water pump. My worry is that there might be other causes for the noises apart from the pump, but at least if the dealer replaces it I can dismiss that as a cause.

[JonP01]

So the dealer rings me this morning. Car is fine. There is nothing wrong with it So obviously they must have thought the metal on metal broken bearing sound coming from the engine bay with the car standing completely still was a squeaking bicycle going by or cicadas singing in the trees. To add insult to injury, they want to replace the oil filter as it is not a genuine VW filter (was a German filter fitted by the VW specialist at the first 12 month service and from what I can tell it is at least as good as the genuine one - it might even be the same brand for all I know).

I half expected all of this crap but then again I also half expected they'd do the right thing. In the UK and US customers have no problems getting water pumps replaced and if you read the forums people have had up to 4 replacements under warranty - and that is with the Golf VI where the water pump is apparently a much more involved part to replace than on the 77TSI Polo.

So not happy at all, especially as I went to the trouble of writing them a detailed 1 page latter precisely explaining how to reproduce the problem and where exactly the noise was coming from. And I gave them a recording of it all as well. So rather than fix up what is a potentially serious problem for free under warranty they want to charge me $90 for an un-necessary oil filter change.

I honestly wish I had just bought a Yaris. Being bored to death behind the wheel is better than having these sorts of hassles. So I suppose if the pump outright fails next time on the freeway and the engine and turbo completely lunch themselves, the will want to charge $6,000 for a repair, since I had the car serviced by an independent and they did not use a filter with "VW" stamped on it.

Yes, I know my legal rights, but it's going to be a pain to enforce them.

[ATYPIC]

To add insult to injury, they want to replace the oil filter as it is not a genuine VW filter (was a German filter fitted by the VW specialist at the first 12 month service and from what I can tell it is at least as good as the genuine one - it might even be the same brand for all I know).

Was it a Mahle by any chance?

My VW specialist service centre uses these Mahle filters on all Euro cars they service. I was also told they are actually made in the same factory as the VW branded version and are of identical spec.

After having issues with my oil pressure light continually appearing at random, and several visits to VW service centre to discover said issue...I was totally frowned upon when they discovered my filter which was damaged and causing the problem, was a Mahle filter and not a VW branded filter.

Even whilst under warranty I had to pay $140+ for labour and a new VW filter....which was eventually reimbursed by my specialist service guy under their warranty.

[JonP01]

Was it a Mahle by any chance?

I don't have the car back yet and I can't remember 100% but I think that name rings a bell.

[JonP01]

Just got back from the VW dealer and I feel a bit better than I did before. I saw the foreman and he was actually quite amiable and knowledgeable, but most importantly he obviously does not have any hearing issues. I took him for a drive over my "test" route and thankfully he easily heard the first (and least concerning) of my issues - that metallic sort of induction percolating noise. He says this is normal and merely indicative of the car engine / turbo freeing up and I won't argue the point. He says the more powerful models sound even "worse" and that a lot of the noise is due to the relatively high mounting of the turbo in relation to the bonnet line. There is some logic to all of this - over the last 14 months I virtually never ever used more than about 30% throttle or more than around 3,500 RPM simply because it was never necessary. But over the last few months I have changed my daily route and there is a very steep high speed hill that begins at a very slow roundabout and I have to work it harder to get to the speed limit up that hill. So maybe I am only freeing up the mechanicals now.

Maybe an aftermarket mod might make the induction sound a bit beefier and not sounding like a coffee percolator full of metal filings like it does now.

But sadly the big issue - the really loud metal on metal dry bearing type noise: He could not reproduce it. But in a sense, I am happy because since he heard the induction noise I was talking about (which is far, far quieter than the screaming water pump), then he is obviously going to hear the water pump if it does actually muck up. I am just befuddled as to how it has screamed every morning for the last 10 days and this morning when he started it, it behaved itself (he did an indoor start and my car is garaged overnight).

Anyway, he asked to keep it for one more day and I agreed - anything to try and resolve the problem. I asked him how complicated changing the pump is. He says it is much less involved than the more expensive models - the main thing is having to change the coolant and bleed the system apparently.

[JonP01]

A final update: got the car back this morning. They did not do anything to it apart from the aforementioned oil filter and an ECU update this morning. So far as the ECU update was concerned, the report says "Cause: outdated ECU software. Found TPI relating to upgrade to ECU software for similar intermittent noise. Updated ECU software". On the way back home the car was behaving no differently to when I dropped it off two days ago.

[LukePolo]

A final update: got the car back this morning. They did not do anything to it apart from the aforementioned oil filter and an ECU update this morning. So far as the ECU update was concerned, the report says "Cause: outdated ECU software. Found TPI relating to upgrade to ECU software for similar intermittent noise. Updated ECU software". On the way back home the car was behaving no differently to when I dropped it off two days ago.

Jon, I have the exact same polo as you, Candy White, manual 77TSI. I'd love to hear this noise you are talking about, to see if mine also does it..