Carbon build up......77tsi???

[danntsi77]

I recently had my 77tsi serviced last week, they called me during the service to say that there was carbon build up / gunk in the intake section of the engine before the intake valves.......

I said ok to them cleaning these deposits from the engine...........

From what i understand this tends to affect direct injection engines mostly due to the fuel not cleaning the valves/intake ports.......

This would exclude the 63kw 1.4 N/A as its port injected.....

Has anyone else had this happen to their engine???

[DNA Tuning]

This tends to affect NA FSI models the most across the VAG range; ie. B7 RS4, Passat R36, etc.

Turbo'd models, whether it's from the higher intake air velocities/pressures/temperatures from running boost or some other reason tend to not have this problem as much.

Might affect the 77TSI more than say a Golf GTI as it runs very little boost by default; bit worrying after warranty runs out...

Some people use a Subaru cleaner additive every now and then through the vacuum system. Could be good to do this once every couple of months when the car runs out of warranty?

[Greg Roles]

If you paid say $180 for the process, you just got "up sold". They will try telling you the discs need machining next service, and these are common tricks to raise the bill, and whilst they are sometimes true enough, so too are they things to question.

All direct injection cars suffer from buildup, as there is now no fuel washing out the inlet like older injected or even carbie cars. Diesels suffer the worst, but the buildup is a combination of the exhaust gas recycled in all modern engines for pollution control, and oil blowby from combustion. You have a few choices to combat it.

First, ignore it like most people, and your car probably won't stop or have a mechanical problem in the first year or two. The second is to buy spray cans of cleaner at about $30 from Wynns, Subaru -specific intake cleaners and clean it out yourself. The third is to pay the dealer towards $200 to effectively do the same thing. Forth is to install an oil catch can, something essential for diesels and higly recommended for anyone keeping their car over 100kms, or who just wants to keep it operating at 100%. The fifth option is to trade up every two years and it is someone else's problem!

Paying the dealer a fortune to put a can of spray through the intake is better than nothing for sure, but please realize you are paying a huge premium.....

[Hail22]

Before the regular service i will get my family mechanic to do the cleaning for me, he will charge maybe $80 but hey he works on Ferraris and Lambos so i trust him.

Then throw it into service so they become dumb founded

[Transporter]

Oh guys please, don't put every dealer in the same bag. How do you know that they don't use the dedicated equipment for cleaning the intake system that uses a bit different chemical to your Subaru / Wynns and other cleaners you can get your hands on?

What puts you in the position to doubt their judgment what needs to be done?
Once you say they don't care, they don't do enough and second time when they try to combat the problem that exist and will affect the car later, you get on your high horse.
This problem is not just VAG cars specific.

...and of course, if there is an extra work needed and it takes an hour to do it, you will pay, what do you expect?

To the OP, you should ask them what exactly they do to the intake and get it explained.
To some others, I always ask dealer the questions, before I start to think that they're just after my money and I suggest that you do the same.

[Bug_racer]

If you paid say $180 for the process, you just got "up sold". They will try telling you the discs need machining next service, and these are common tricks to raise the bill, and whilst they are sometimes true enough, so too are they things to question.

All direct injection cars suffer from buildup, as there is now no fuel washing out the inlet like older injected or even carbie cars. Diesels suffer the worst, but the buildup is a combination of the exhaust gas recycled in all modern engines for pollution control, and oil blowby from combustion. You have a few choices to combat it.

First, ignore it like most people, and your car probably won't stop or have a mechanical problem in the first year or two. The second is to buy spray cans of cleaner at about $30 from Wynns, Subaru -specific intake cleaners and clean it out yourself. The third is to pay the dealer towards $200 to effectively do the same thing. Forth is to install an oil catch can, something essential for diesels and higly recommended for anyone keeping their car over 100kms, or who just wants to keep it operating at 100%. The fifth option is to trade up every two years and it is someone else's problem!

Paying the dealer a fortune to put a can of spray through the intake is better than nothing for sure, but please realize you are paying a huge premium.....

Im going to disagree with you there

I dont like catch cans on any TFSI motor . They create crankcase ventilation issues with the top rocker cover eventually leading to one way valves failing . Not to mention on a 2.0 TFSI it makes bugger all difference in the deposits on the intake valves .

The three options I would give are :
1) constantly put in subaru upper engine cleaner / intake cleaner every 2-3k km
2) run a direct port water - meth injection system
3) remove the manifold and clean the intake manifold divider runners . intake , cylinder head intake dividers and also injectors .

I usually go for the third option as everything gets cleaned by hand and if done correctly it actually reduces the amount of oil that builds up on the walls of the intake ports on the head and valves and creates more flowing patterns on the dividers that creates less build up . The other issue is you need to remove and clean the injectors to give them back their original spray pattern . Every time combustion occurs you'll get some form of superheated carbon build up on the tip of the injector , eventually you start loosing the spray pattern and I doubt any injector cleaner will get it off !

[Greg Roles]

Interesting theory, I guess there's proof of the failings? Seems a lot of companies sell a lot of catch cans, and I'd rather collect that oil than ingest it. I donlt doubt the buildup seems the same after several thousand kms, as there is always some oil in the system ie total loss from turbo, and no can is 100% efficient, but I would argue the rate of buildup is far less.

I realise I flog them, but the pro's for a catchcan far outweigh the cons, and as most people won't get their hands dirty and pull it apart ( it's a friggen filthy job ) or run water meth, then a bolt on is about the best option.

You really telling me a spray will move that quantity and surface area of gunk??? Perhaps 100 litres.....not 400g!

On and Miro my comment is based on your typical dealer, not a passionate independant mechanic. My brother is a mechanic by trade, and I've seen the typical dealer upsells first hand, this is often just another one!

[danntsi77]

i did ask the service guy what he ment by carbon build up when they told me,

i did know before hand what it was, but wanted to see of they were on the same description that i had read about earlier.

I really dont mind paying $180 bucks if i get it done once a year.

at the end of the day everyone is out to make money, at least they were honest it needed doing and the engine feels alot meatier now than ever before.

[Diesel_vert]

I recently had my 77tsi serviced last week, they called me during the service to say that there was carbon build up / gunk in the intake section of the engine before the intake valves.......

I said ok to them cleaning these deposits from the engine...........

From what i understand this tends to affect direct injection engines mostly due to the fuel not cleaning the valves/intake ports.......

This would exclude the 63kw 1.4 N/A as its port injected.....

Has anyone else had this happen to their engine???

Carbon deposits already?

How old is your car?

i did ask the service guy what he ment by carbon build up when they told me,

i did know before hand what it was, but wanted to see of they were on the same description that i had read about earlier.

I really dont mind paying $180 bucks if i get it done once a year.

One would assume they must've disassembled the engine to determine the presence of carbon build-up, so were there any labour costs involving disassembly of engine parts, or was it just a liquid flush treatment?

at the end of the day everyone is out to make money

Of course, which is why you need to remain vigilant.

[Transporter]

Even if the OP had his first 15,000km service there would be some deposit starting to build up. It starts with the hydrocarbons that are in the air from the cars exhausts when you drive in city traffic and you stop at the intersections. The second is from engine’s blow by gases and recirculated exhaust gasses (EGR) that are rich in unburnt fuel and oil vapours. At the first you get only oil film on the inside of the intake, which gets thicker longer you leave it there. Then the soot (from the same source of hydrocarbons), sticks to that oil film. As you continue driving with that deposits in there, after while it all get baked (carbonized) and onto the metal surface it lays on. The first areas where you will spot it would be the hottest one on the valves and the top of the pistons.

Ideally you should remove these deposits at every service while they’re still not baked onto. I recommend doing it every 15,000 -20,000km

---------- Post added at 12:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 PM ----------

One would assume they must've disassembled the engine to determine the presence of carbon build-up.

No, they don't have to. It's easilly checked with the borescope.

[Diesel_vert]

Even if the OP had his first 15,000km service there would be some deposit starting to build up. It starts with the hydrocarbons that are in the air from the cars exhausts when you drive in city traffic and you stop at the intersections. The second is from engine’s blow by gases and recirculated exhaust gasses (EGR) that are rich in unburnt fuel and oil vapours. At the first you get only oil film on the inside of the intake, which gets thicker longer you leave it there. Then the soot (from the same source of hydrocarbons), sticks to that oil film. As you continue driving with that deposits in there, after while it all get baked (carbonized) and onto the metal surface it lays on. The first areas where you will spot it would be the hottest one on the valves and the top of the pistons.

Ideally you should remove these deposits at every service while they’re still not baked onto. I recommend doing it every 15,000 -20,000km

I see.

That said, although it's satisfying to have an engine with spotless internals, I'd also be fine as long as the carbon deposits doesn't significantly affect performance. If you're a competent home mechanic who's passionate about cars, then I can see why you'd physically clean it yourself, but maybe a bit much if you have to pay someone to do it for you.

It's when they start building up on certain areas (but not limited to) the intake valves, EGR, etc. which can really affect performance that I start to get concerned. Hopefully for the OP, it's the former and not the latter.

[Acko1991]

Would it benefit the vehicle to have a really good run at least once a service period.....IE: over 4 hours highway driving.....Would that lessen the build up of carbon deposits?

[Transporter]

Would it benefit the vehicle to have a really good run at least once a service period.....IE: over 4 hours highway driving.....Would that lessen the build up of carbon deposits?

Not really. If you would drive only long trips and had less cold start ups, then you would have less unburned hydrocarbons, less soot and cleaner engine the inside. But one long trip wouldn't make difference.

[Diesel_vert]

Would it benefit the vehicle to have a really good run at least once a service period.....IE: over 4 hours highway driving.....Would that lessen the build up of carbon deposits?

If the engine has a fundamental design flaw, then no amount of driving will really prevent it. It may perhaps reduce the rate of buildup, but ultimately, you'll need to dismantle the engine and clean it.

At the same time, not all engines are affected to the same degree. As the 1.2 TSI hasn't been around for that long, I don't know if it's particularly prone to fouling up its intake valves. Also, the OP mentioned buildup in relation to the intake manifold, not the intake valves themselves (though feel free to correct).

For example, in this article (Direct Injection Fouls Some Early Adopters), some engines from other manufacturers have managed to avoid such buildup.

[gavs]

Would you guys recommend Seafoam to sort out the carbon build up?