Why you Cannot do a "Wheel Alignment" on the 6R polo

[brad]

Just tell them it's started pulling really badly to the left and didn't do that before the accident. It's their job to work out how to fix it.

[equiped]

It's their job to work out how to fix it.

Yeah mate...fair call. Will do.

Cheers

[rana_kirti]

polo left pulling solution....?!?

Hi fellow polo owners,

Hope all's well.

I'm seeking your expert option and guidance on this left pulling issue which has been bothering me since 4 months. my polo has been pulling left since i got it home. i tried alignment at 2 different alignment shops but it could not be solved. i also got alignment done at vw workshop but it could not be rectified. they have tried rotating tyre left to right, front to back but the issue persists.

I have test driven a couple of my friends polos and they drive relatively straight and also a few demo car polos which all track straight.

yesterday i went to a hunter hawkeye alignment workshop. they did alignment and my car finally seemed to go straight. i felt the problem solved almost to an extent of 90 %.

however the alignment master technician told me to still take the car to vw for alignment as he felt that the RED value of the Left Caster meant some part of the front suspension could be bent like an arm or knuckle. Though he said the value of RED is a very small one and chances of something being bent are small. He told me that if the Caster/Camber values show RED on their alignment machine it means some part is bent/damaged.

I'm attaching report of the Hunter alignment for your reference.

On my way to the vw workshop i felt the car was straight about 90% of the times which was a big relief since i was troubled by this since 4 months....

When at vw workshop i informed them about the above. They told me they will do their own alignment to check this. They did physical inspection of the front suspension on a high lift and then did tyre rotation and alignment on their machine but no values showed in RED. All were in green.

After alignment we went for test drive but the left pulling came back. Then they re did alignment and test drive again the left pulling was still there. VW workshop technicians tried to help a lot and i must say were very dedicated in finding a solution but it could not be solved. It was late in the evening so i came back home.

I am attaching VW alignment report for your reference.

This has left me very confused and i request you to kindly read both reports to help me pinpoint the problem...

Thanks in anticipation,

Rana.

[Umai Naa!!]

They can try loosening off the front subframe, and shifting it slightly forwards or backwards to alter the castor.

[brad]

One of the machines is slightly out of calibration. That's no big deal

It's doing my head in trying to compare the values of what the VW place changed after the Hunter alignment.

Basically, if you drive on the LHS of the road (where does India drive?) then you need a fraction more (say 0.5 degrees / 30minutes) caster on the LHS & also about 0.5 degrees extra negative camber on the LHS.

Have either of them tried (or are aware of) shifting the front cross-member slightly left & skewing it slightly clockwise (when looked at from the top)

[rana_kirti]

We don't really have specialist suspension shops here where i live. the hunter guy does have hunter elite hawkeye which i believe is truly world class but he said to adjust any caster/camber you have to go to vw workshop.

also thanks for your replies... it gives me a bit of hope to solve this issue. yes we drive on the LHS of the road. i'm going to another vw workshop to try to get this sorted.

But looking for some clarity on the above replies as i want to be armed with maximum knowledge of what is possible before i go to the vw workshop....

1. is the subframe and front cross member the same thing ?

2. are you suggesting the front cross member on the left side be shifted slightly left & skewing it slightly clockwise..?

So it indicates that 2 movements are possible

a. shifting it left or right

b. skewing it clockwise/anticlockwise

Will this affect both caster and camber or only one of them ?

If the above movement alters both caster and camber then i believe doing so will increase the caster on the left side and simultaneously decrease on right side and also increase negative camber on left side and decrease on the right side. Is that correct ? And that will make the car then go straight ?

while researching i came across another member "pologti18t" quote below

"it doesn't change the overall camber... Just the difference between left and right."

What does this mean ?

Warm Regards,

Rana.

[brad]

We don't really have specialist suspension shops here where i live. the hunter guy does have hunter elite hawkeye which i believe is truly world class but he said to adjust any caster/camber you have to go to vw workshop.

He doesn't know what he's doing.

It's not hard, undo the subframe bolts & lever it around a bit.

1. is the subframe and front cross member the same thing ?

yes it is

2. are you suggesting the front cross member on the left side be shifted slightly left & skewing it slightly clockwise..?

There is one front x-member/subframe. It runs across the width of the vehicle underneath & slightley behind the engine. Look in Post #1 of this thread. page 128 of the workshop manual image (print it out!). If the mechanic is standing underneath the vehicle looking forwards then the X-member needs to be pushed left and forwrd on the LHS and rearward on the RHS. They'll have to experiment a bit.

So it indicates that 2 movements are possible

a. shifting it left or right

b. skewing it clockwise/anticlockwise

Will this affect both caster and camber or only one of them ?

Yes. There are 4 bolts. The shaft of the bolt is about 8mm diameter. The hole is about 12mm diameter. So there's some wiggle room.

You're alignment guy will work it out when he realises it can be moved.

If the above movement alters both caster and camber then i believe doing so will increase the caster on the left side and

simultaneously decrease on right side and also increase negative camber on left side and decrease on the right side. Is that correct ? And that will make the car then go straight ?

You want between 0.5degrees & 1 degree caster on the Left than the right - the actual figure doesn't matter that much. On yours, if you can get the Left at 4.4 & the Right just under 4 I'd be happy. Ideally L4.5/R4.0 Sorry, I'm talking in decimal degrees. Can't get my head around degrees & minutes. 30minutes = 0.5 degrees - you do the math.

ideally you want between 0.5-1 degree extra negative camber (inward lean at the top) on the LHS than the RHS. The set-up is like a trapezoid so as you move the subframe L<->R it takes away from one side & adds to the other.
You have only 0.5degrees total camber so not much to play with as you need to maintain negative camber on both sides. Aim for L-0.3---0.4 / R-0.2--0.1

while researching i came across another member "pologti18t" quote below

[COLOR=#333333]"it doesn't change the overall camber... Just the difference between left and right."

What does this mean ?

it's a trapezoid and you are shifting the lower line left & right

[rana_kirti]

thanks a ton brad.... I'm going to my dealer today who has agreed to work the sub frame. hoping for the best.

could you also take a moment to look at the Hunter report which shows the rear axle left camber in RED. what does that mean ?

cheers

[brad]

Back left is leaning in at the top. Spec is 1d17m-1d37m (call it 1.25-1.6) and your at almost 1.75 which isn't terrible. There's no factory adjustment for camber at the rear and as I said previously, one of the machines needs calibrating as it's within spec on the dealership machine.

Don't get too hung up on specifications. What is more important is that the vehicles steers straight, is stable around corners & isn't getting bad tyre wear patterns.

You can undo the mount bolts for the rear subframe/suspension units & try & wrestle them into a better spot & re-clamp the nuts but affect on camber is negligable. It's more to even out toe & get a better thrust line.

There are aftermarket shims available for the rear.

[rana_kirti]

Update post Sub Frame Alignment.

first off thanks to all for help and suggestions, especially brad....

So last week i went to my dealer workshop for the sub frame alignment. they lifted the car on a lift and un did 4 bolts and moved/skewed the the sub frame in such a way that the front left tyre moved a bit forward and the front right moved a bit backward at the same time.

after re tightening the sub frame i went for a long extended test drive with my service advisor over a variety of roads and magically the car was running straight. it was a big relief after 4 months of going to many different alignment shops to solve this left pulling problem.

aligning the sub frame made the steering wheel a bit crooked which my service advisor fixed by removing the airbag and adjusting the steering with a tool and it become straight.

then i went to the hunter guy again for a realignment to be double sure and got a print out from him which i have posted below.

1. before sub frame alignment the caster value on the front left was RED and post sub frame alignment the caster value on the front right is RED. Camber still seems less on left than right post sub frame alignment. Is that OK ? Does sub frame alignment only adjust the Caster or Camber too ?



But here is my confusion.....

i have 2 sets of tyre.

my car came with 185 65 15 oem. i had upgraded to 205 55 15 the very next day. when i went to the dealer i had the 185 65 15 oem tyres on and post sub frame alignment it solved the left pulling problem.

a few days back i re installed the 205 55 15 and to my dread the left pulling has come back. i went to the hunter guy again and he tried a ton of stuff like left to right and front to back swap but the left pulling on the 205 55 15 remains.

2. Could it be that my 205 55 15 are faulty ? OR could it be that i need more sub frame alignment to make the 205 55 15 go straight ?

thanks.

[Guest001]

Try taking the tyres off the rims and in and outing them

[brad]

after re tightening the sub frame i went for a long extended test drive with my service advisor over a variety of roads and magically the car was running straight. it was a big relief after 4 months of going to many different alignment shops to solve this left pulling problem.

aligning the sub frame made the steering wheel a bit crooked which my service advisor fixed by removing the airbag and adjusting the steering with a tool and it become straight.

He should set the wheel straight ahead & then adjusted the tie rods underneath.

then i went to the hunter guy again for a realignment to be double sure and got a print out from him which i have posted below.

I can't work out why you'd do this if the car had been fixed.

1. before sub frame alignment the caster value on the front left was RED and post sub frame alignment the caster value on the front right is RED. Camber still seems less on left than right post sub frame alignment. Is that OK ? Does sub frame alignment only adjust the Caster or Camber too ?

Subframe adjustment will do both angles but I'd guess they've done what they can. There's only so much movement available.

Don't worry about the caster reading - it's not a tyre wearing angle.

But here is my confusion.....

i have 2 sets of tyre.

my car came with 185 65 15 oem. i had upgraded to 205 55 15 the very next day. when i went to the dealer i had the 185 65 15 oem tyres on and post sub frame alignment it solved the left pulling problem.

a few days back i re installed the 205 55 15 and to my dread the left pulling has come back. i went to the hunter guy again and he tried a ton of stuff like left to right and front to back swap but the left pulling on the 205 55 15 remains.

Why on earth would you get it fixed with one set of tyres & then fit another set? The alignment is to fine tune the chassis angles and also to compensate for any run out that the tyres might have.

What you've done is like having a misfire in an engine & getting it fixed & then puting another engine in and wondering why it's misfiring again.

2. Could it be that my 205 55 15 are faulty ? OR could it be that i need more sub frame alignment to make the 205 55 15 go straight ?

thanks.

They might have excessive run out but usually a L/R swap at the front will fix that. What brand are they? Are they directional or asymmetrical?

When they jack up the front where are they puting the jack?

[gavs]

first off thanks to all for help and suggestions, especially brad....

So last week i went to my dealer workshop for the sub frame alignment. they lifted the car on a lift and un did 4 bolts and moved/skewed the the sub frame in such a way that the front left tyre moved a bit forward and the front right moved a bit backward at the same time.

after re tightening the sub frame i went for a long extended test drive with my service advisor over a variety of roads and magically the car was running straight. it was a big relief after 4 months of going to many different alignment shops to solve this left pulling problem.

aligning the sub frame made the steering wheel a bit crooked which my service advisor fixed by removing the airbag and adjusting the steering with a tool and it become straight.

then i went to the hunter guy again for a realignment to be double sure and got a print out from him which i have posted below.

1. before sub frame alignment the caster value on the front left was RED and post sub frame alignment the caster value on the front right is RED. Camber still seems less on left than right post sub frame alignment. Is that OK ? Does sub frame alignment only adjust the Caster or Camber too ?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]13123[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]13124[/ATTACH]

But here is my confusion.....

i have 2 sets of tyre.

my car came with 185 65 15 oem. i had upgraded to 205 55 15 the very next day. when i went to the dealer i had the 185 65 15 oem tyres on and post sub frame alignment it solved the left pulling problem.

a few days back i re installed the 205 55 15 and to my dread the left pulling has come back. i went to the hunter guy again and he tried a ton of stuff like left to right and front to back swap but the left pulling on the 205 55 15 remains.

2. Could it be that my 205 55 15 are faulty ? OR could it be that i need more sub frame alignment to make the 205 55 15 go straight ?

thanks.

Guys could we maybe put this into a "why is my car pulling to the left" thread rather than "why you cannot do a wheel alignment on the 6r polo"? I am going to clean this thread up and remove any non-relevant posts so I suggest we start a new thread.

[brad]

It's the same subject Gavs - just a different answer.

As I've said before, you can do an alignment if you're willing to work at it. I know you don't agree with me but even the manual says it can be done.

[parraeel]

I just had the front toe checked and adjusted on my 6R (it was a little bit out), and have found the steering to be a lot more sensitive to road camber etc.