Interesting torque figures for 7Spd Dual Clutch

[gavs]

Now, straight up, I don't know if the gearboxes are the same but seeing as the more powerfull 125TDI motor can only be had with a 6spd manual, I have my suspicions that they are very similar to the polo GTI gearbox...

This is from Drive.com.au about the new Tiguan

New VW Tiguan (launch drive models only)

155TSI
Engine: 2.0-litre turbo 4-cyl
Power: 155kW at 5300-6200rpm
Torque: 280Nm at 1700-5200rpm
Transmission: 7-spd dual-clutch auto, AWD
Fuel consumption and emissions: 8.6L/100km and 199g/km
0-100km/h: 7.4 seconds (claimed)

125TDI
Engine: 2.0-litre turbo diesel 4-cyl
Power: 125kW at 4200rpm
Torque: 350Nm at 1750-2500rpm
Transmission: 6-spd manual, AWD
Fuel consumption and emissions: 6.0L/100km and 158g/km
0-100km/h: 8.9 seconds (claimed)

132TSI
Engine: 2.0-litre turbo 4-cyl
Power: 132W at 4500-6200rpm
Torque: 280Nm at 1700-4500rpm
Transmission: 6-spd manual or 7-spd dual-clutch auto
Fuel consumption and emissions: 8.6L/100km and 199g/km
0-100km/h: 7.9 seconds (auto, claimed)

Seems the first admission that the 7spd Dual clutcher can indeed handle more than the supposed limit of 250Nm.... I noticed today also the new A1 Sport has 4 more kilowatts of power over the GTI, yet somehow has exactly the same torque figure.....

[kaanage]

There is an older spec 7 speed DSG that has a lower torque limit than the new one.
I think the Polo uses the older one to save on costs (but I could be wrong)

[Corey_R]

Sorry... you're both mistaken.

There are two 7sp DSG gearboxes... this has been discussed before, so I'm just going to copy and paste what I wrote then:

There are only 3 DSG models (in order of release).
1) 6sp wet clutch 350Nm
2) 7sp dry clutch 250Nm
3) 7sp wet clutch 550Nm

The "Original" DSG was the 6sp wet clutch DSG. VAG rate it for 350Nm and it has FWD and AWD versions.

Later came the 7sp dry clutch DSG. VAG rate it for 250Nm and it was designed to greatly reduce maintenance cost, weight etc.

Then came the 7sp wet clutch DSG from Audi. VAG rate it for 550Nm. It's said to be very similar in design to the 7sp PDK which Porsche designed and commissioned VF to build for them. It's a monster of a gearbox though...

The two 7sp gearboxes couldn't be further apart. The 7sp dry clutch weighing 70kg with two single plate dry clutches and having a transmission oil system with only 1.7L. The 7sp wet clutch weighing 140kg with a 10 plate clutch and a 12 plate clutch. It then has two separate transmission oil systems. A 7.5L system which lubricates the clutches and mechatronics. And a 4.3L system which lubricates the gears and differentials.



So it's not a case of there being an "older" and "newer" 7sp DSGs. They're COMPLETELY different gearboxes which are engineered for completely different purposes. Considering VW couldn't fit a 6sp manual gearbox into the Polo GTI, there is no way that the 7sp wet-clutch DSG could fit in the Polo GTI. Also, with the weight penalty, you probably wouldn't want it to!

[DoggieHowser]

I think the OP is aware of this.

But I did recall there was a newer DSG 7 speeder designed for their turbo diesel vehicles and given the price range, it's unlikely to be the monster version used in the Audi ones.

Ps wouldn't the modded R DSGs in danger of busting the limits if the gearbox?

[kaanage]

Sorry... you're both mistaken.

Where am I wrong????

The older 7 speed DSG has a lower torque limit and is cheaper (and is lighter/smaller) than the newer one. I never said the designs were similar but they are both 7 speed and DSG

IBut I did recall there was a newer DSG 7 speeder designed for their turbo diesel vehicles and given the price range, it's unlikely to be the monster version used in the Audi ones.

Yes it is an it is only used in the bigger turbo diesel vehicles. That's why the Golf/Jetta use the 6 speed DSG.

The turbo-diesel 6R Polo is relatively gutless so the older 7 speed DSG can handle its output.

Ps wouldn't the modded R DSGs in danger of busting the limits if the gearbox?

That'd be gavs's concern

[DoggieHowser]

http://www.volkswagenag.com/vwag/vwcorp/info_center/en/themes/2010/01/dsg_the_new_dq500.html

[Transporter]

The Audi Q7 and Q5 has the 7sp longitudinally mounted DSG and it is very long g.box shorter version of it is in new T5's and Tiguans from MY11. It's very unlikely that any of the 7 speed DSG with wet clutch would fit in the Polo.

[kaanage]

Volkswagen Group - DSG: the New DQ500

Yep, it's studded with references about how the DQ500 is designed for larger vehicles

[Transporter]

You can find more about the Q5 and the DSGbox in this link. AUDI_Q5_Eng_Trans[1].pdf

[Transporter]

If anyone is worried about the life of the DSG, then I suppose he/she is right that the limits set by manufacturer will be exceeded.

[Corey_R]

Ps wouldn't the modded R DSGs in danger of busting the limits if the gearbox?

The turbo-diesel 6R Polo is relatively gutless so the older 7 speed DSG can handle its output.

I really wish vBulletin had a built in "Wikipedia" style publishing interface because it'd help with situations like this which come up in every single DSG related thread.

gavs won't be too concerned about the R's gearbox, since he has a Polo GTI

But to repeat myself again.
No, there is no issue with modified Golf R's and their DSG.
Everyone gets so worked up over the "torque limits" of the DSG and overlook the fact that the traditional manual gearbox in the cars have the same torque limit.

Whilst VAG rate the "torque limit" of the 6sp wet clutch DSG as 350Nm, this is along the same lines as them rating the engine for 188kw / 330Nm. But we all know that a simple ECU flash ups those engines to ~240kw/430Nm and everything is fine. As far as we're aware, not a single engine failure due to any reputable tuning companies flash!

There are Stage 3 Golf R's (and S3's and GTI's) all running around with unmodified DSGs whilst pushing out around 300kw and 500Nm. Some of these cars have been running around like this for 3 or 4 years now. Sure, if you're intention is to do drag racing or traffic lights GP all the time, you're going to have clutch issues... but then, you would with any car, modified or not.

If you are going for BIG POWER or would like to drag race etc, then you can upgrade the 6sp wet clutch packs and DSG seals to versions which are rated to up to 600Nm+. Whilst these are not common in Australia, they have been around for many years in Europe to handle "R32 Big Turbo Conversions" that they've done over there. Locally, forum members such as DeanCorp have installed these clutch packs, seals, and the required DSG flash to handle the clutch packs in his "GIAC Extreme" modified MKV Pirelli GTI.


With the 7sp dry clutch DSG which is in the Polo, it has a VAG rating of "250Nm". Again, like the engine, this is conservative.
Having said that, since this is a dry clutch, it is not going to stand up to multiple standing starts anywhere near as well as the wet clutch gearboxes will.

As there hasn't been much "big power" upgrades for cars equiped with the 7sp dry clutch DSG thus far, there is not yet any DSG flashes or upgrades available (at least none that anyone here has found yet). However, as we all know, APR Australia has been working hard on their Polo GTI, including a lot of hardware upgrades (intakes, intercoolers, full exhausts etc) which are really the first products to really push the capabilities of the 7sp dry clutch. So as per their comments in the Motor magazine article this month, the 7sp dry clutch DSG is something that they'll need to look at to get some type of upgrades for those who are going beyond the standard "ECU flash".

Anyway, hope that helps...

[DoggieHowser]

Yep, it's studded with references about how the DQ500 is designed for larger vehicles

It also says sporty and performance

The DQ500 is currently the world’s only seven-speed transverse-mounted gearbox for high torques that is in large-scale series production. The clutch is designed for an engine torque of up to 600 Nm, and yet 8 mm smaller than in the DQ250. It can be used for a range of applications from sporty passenger cars to commercial vehicles.

AFAIK, the Audi 7 speeders used in R8's, RS5s etc are longitudinal, no?

So that makes this a different 7 speeder.

ie the third 7 speeder and not 2.

a. 7 speeder transverse used in old Golf V Sport 1.4 twincharged
b. 7 speeder longitudinal used in Audi's higher end models
c. 7 speeder transverse described in the DQ500 link

[Transporter]

It also says sporty and performance

The DQ500 is currently the world’s only seven-speed transverse-mounted gearbox for high torques that is in large-scale series production. The clutch is designed for an engine torque of up to 600 Nm, and yet 8 mm smaller than in the DQ250. It can be used for a range of applications from sporty passenger cars to commercial vehicles.

AFAIK, the Audi 7 speeders used in R8's, RS5s etc are longitudinal, no?

So that makes this a different 7 speeder.

ie the third 7 speeder and not 2.

a. 7 speeder transverse used in old Golf V Sport 1.4 twincharged
b. 7 speeder longitudinal used in Audi's higher end models
c. 7 speeder transverse described in the DQ500 link

It's pointless to argue about that, tomorrow there could be another 7 speed DSG and you would be wrong.

How ever it is very interesting that 125kW TDI in Tiguan is not offered with the 7 speed DSG. It could be interesting to know the truth reason behind it. Any idea Corey_R?

[Corey_R]

When we talk about there being two different 7sp DSG's we're talking about DSG "families".

Like when we mention the "original 6sp wet clutch DSG" - there isn't just 1 of them. There is multiple in the family.
Not only has it gone through several revisions over the years, but there are transverse and longitudinal, plus FWD and AWD versions obviously.


Whilst the link you DQ500 link provided has several obvious mistakes in it (such as saying the DQ250 has wet clutches too), it's "marketting source" rather than a technical source. But then, maybe some of the technical sources haven't updated or are inaccurate.

[Corey_R]

Oh damn, Transporter beat me and is saying much the same thing...

As for the 125kw TDI in the Tiguan, I'm not sure! It's sometimes hard to figure this stuff out because there are very few sources of "complete" information available publically. Even if you have the self training documents for some models (such as the Q5 one you posted), they give a brief summary and then tell you to look at previous self training documents for more detailed information (just like it does in that Q5 one!).

I'd be great if there was a complete listing on these things. For what it's worth, the Wikipedia article on the DSG only lists the 3 "families" (6sp wet clutch, 7sp dry clutch, 7sp wet clutch).