R36 wanted for new ECU tune testing

[R36FTW]

I find it interesting that a lot of people seem to think they know more about a product, or a process than the person who is doing it/selling it..


I'd pay $700 for 15kw any day of the week on an atmo car.

That's cheap as dirt. Chip tuning, FI or NA is the cheapest horsepower adder you'll find.

Put a $1300.00 exhaust on and see if you get 15kw! Not even a Akraprovic Ti exhaust worth 3k will give you 15kw.


All the best to you, John.

I know about tuning (as opposed to thinking I know about tuning, or thinking I know what someone else knows then making assumptions and getting it wrong ) because, well, I can tune. I tuned my own car, and have tuned others' cars. I have an Evo 8 as well as my R36, so it also allows me a comparison between the Evo, which is reasonably fast, to the R36, which is not fast, and I can say from that comparison, for me, that the R36 is not worth spending a cent on in terms of tuning - even tuned you're in the mid 13's for the quarter. You'd need forced induction to make an R36 fast. 15kw at the engine (from the first post here - claims the tune produces 235kw) on a car that weighs 1.7 tonnes is pretty minimal.

One of my issues, if you read back a couple of posts, was that these tuners are close-lipped about how they tune, and most seem to indicate at the engine power figures. Seems this is common with Audi and VW tuners, I'm not singling this guy out. I want more clear information because I come from a tuning scene where we use dyno tuning, and gains are accurately discussed in terms of KW at the wheels on a certain dyno using a certain measurement mode (math model). Enough with the talk already, tune a car, dyno it and post the results - surely that's not too hard to do. He has back calculated using estimated drive train losses to get the 235kw at the engine figure, unless he engine dyno'd the car. I'd like to know which method he used, and if i was dyno'd and back calculated what are the specifics of the dyno used - this along with the dyno measurement mode should be provided when making power claims, and this is what I'm used to. Also if it was calculated from an at the wheels figure what % drivetrain loss was used and how was this established? At the wheels figures are commonplace in japanese tuning, no idea why german tuners use predominantly at the engine figures.



@johnw - I have seen cars with mail in tunes knocking like you wouldn't believe. These cars would have destroyed themselves had the tunes not been checked, diagnosed and adjusted on a dyno or the street. Most mail in tunes should be very conservative, but some arent, and the fact remains that you don't know what your cars engine is doing after the flash. Say your fuel pump is on the way out, and you flash a tune to your car that was developned on a car with everything working well. Say your injectors are a bit blocked etc etc. Your engine could be at risk of damage or indeed being damaged and you'd never know till it lets go. Hey, it's your money and it's your engine, if you want to risk it, by all means go for it. I prefer to know for sure my engine is safe.

Tuners also allow a safety margin in their tuning, so that for example in higher ambient temps or fuel that is a couple of points down on octane rating, there is no knocking. You don't knife edge tune a street car like you would a drag or track car (these are often adjusted on the day of racing anyway to acount for variables). Also as engines wear sure things change, so you get a touch-up done after some time has passed, or if you change something like your exhaust.

[DNA Tuning]

Lots of discussion here that isn't directly relevant to the r36 we're working on here but all good.

I have several cars lined up for this tune in Melbourne. I will be logging and checking each car vigorously, as much as i am with the current car we're working on. I would like to think that modern cars are close enough out of the factory to run the exact same tune, but of course i will confirm that as well. Do keep in mind that these days the amount of loggable data is immense, to the point where you wouldn't even need a dyno other than to verify exact power gain to justify claimed power increase.

Wideband o2, knock voltage, individual cylinder timing retard, etc. All at very fast sample rates via CAN bus.

And, why would I reveal our tuning strategies behind this particular engine if it means other tuners will just do the same? I can obviously tell you we run more ign timing adjust the fuelling, but if that is too vague, then that is because we don't want to go revealing our secrets and losing customers to other tuners!

[R36FTW]

I didn't want your in depth tuning method, that's obviously your information to keep, plus I understand how it's done anyway (I've not tuned an R36 but I'm not asking you to reveal the specific technical details of your tuning).

When it comes down to it, all I was after is something simple like the following:

KW at the wheels before tune =
KW at the wheels after tune =
Fuel used =
Dyno used =
Measurement mode used =

EDIT: Engines may come of the factory line pretty close, but looking at oil consumption measurements after everyone runs in their engine and seeing how varied the results are, should indicate tolerances are not the same after use. Compression tests would reveal differences too. I've seen significant differences between same model/age with similar km vehicels. That's another discussion anyway. I'd just like you to post up some basic at the wheels power figures with dyno charts and dyno info to verify the claims.

[johnw]

@johnw - I have seen cars with mail in tunes knocking like you wouldn't believe. These cars would have destroyed themselves had the tunes not been checked, diagnosed and adjusted on a dyno or the street. Most mail in tunes should be very conservative, but some arent, and the fact remains that you don't know what your cars engine is doing after the flash. Say your fuel pump is on the way out, and you flash a tune to your car that was developned on a car with everything working well. Say your injectors are a bit blocked etc etc. Your engine could be at risk of damage or indeed being damaged and you'd never know till it lets go. Hey, it's your money and it's your engine, if you want to risk it, by all means go for it. I prefer to know for sure my engine is safe.

Of cause there will be cars that don't run well with a "mail in tune", depending on their state, my 1.8T had a blown coil pack after 500km of the tune, would that be the tune's fault or just extra stress put on an 8 yr old engine part?

If your fuel pump dies/injector gets blocked etc, will a custom tune act differently to protect your engine? (genuine question as I've never tuned a car )

I've run my 1.8T before and after on a dyno and the gains (reverse calculated) are inline with what the seller indicated.

I know it's not on a dyno but I have also taken logs with VCDS after the tune (and every other things I put on just as a comparison) for timing, knock. airflow etc just to see if everything's fine.

Am I the in minority if I say that I have had no problems with my "Mail in" tune so far?

Tuners also allow a safety margin in their tuning, so that for example in higher ambient temps or fuel that is a couple of points down on octane rating, there is no knocking. You don't knife edge tune a street car like you would a drag or track car (these are often adjusted on the day of racing anyway to acount for variables). Also as engines wear sure things change, so you get a touch-up done after some time has passed, or if you change something like your exhaust.

So again, that's where I (as an average Joe customer) wonder custom tuning a street car is that different to "Mail in" tunes. Most people don't want to get a touch up tune regularly (I can see the benefit in terms of maximising and maintaining the cars output).

[R34]

I'm not that concerned about the peak power but the associated midrange increase and the promised throttle remapping to make the car feel a bit perkier. The R36 is not slow in reality but IMHO feels that way due mainly due to how the FBY throttle is calibrated.

I drove the new A6 3.0S/C last weekend and with 5kW less than the R36 it felt a lot zippier down low when I selected the Dynamic mode which among other things changed the calibration of the throttle.

[johnw]

I drove the new A6 3.0S/C last weekend and with 5kW less than the R36 it felt a lot zippier down low when I selected the Dynamic mode which among other things changed the calibration of the throttle.

Its prob more to do with the extra 70nm or so of torque from the forced induction than the throttle mapping I reckon.

[R34]

Its prob more to do with the extra 70nm or so of torque from the forced induction than the throttle mapping I reckon.

Agreed
Any more torque would help impove things
Hope the next Passat R if it happens gets forced induction

[R36 DSG]

I agree with many of R36FTW's views on tuning as I also drive a modified jap car (mid 11sec GTR) but to say a mid 13 sec four door family saloon is not fast and not worth spending a cent on I disagree. Either way there is nothing wrong with wanting a few extra KW's and I have heard a lot of positive feedback regarding some of these mail order tunes, however I would never drive my R36 in anger with one of these tunes without first having it dynoed for piece of mind.

[R34]

My GTR only manages 12's

[R36 DSG]

Nice, mines a silver R33 also,
A set of GTSS turbos would fix that.

[Lance B]

I agree with many of R36FTW's views on tuning as I also drive a modified jap car (mid 11sec GTR) but to say a mid 13 sec four door family saloon is not fast and not worth spending a cent on I disagree.

Yeah, I thought that was a little off the mark, too.

[DNA Tuning]

Just want to add that we don't get rid of knock control or anything like that.

If you were to throw in 91 unleaded even on our tune, when you put your foot down the power delivery will be severely hampered as the ECU will correct the timing big time, but even in this situation no damage would be done to the car.

Dyno'ing the car doesn't show how safe a tune is a to run; in an N/A car we can't modify how much air is being drawn in by the engine; for improvements in air mass intake, you need to look into exhaust/downpipe and intake upgrades.

The focus is on using the amount of air mechanically induced by the engine in the most effective manner possible. Yes a dyno run shows the power developed at the wheels, but is not an indication of how "safe" the car is to drive.

If anything, a dyno run can be used to look at how aggressive the boost is being commanded on a turbo car; if the torque is spiking very high, etc. then you know that's bad for the turbo.

In an N/A car, even if our program called for 40 deg BTDC of ignition timing, the ECU simply would not let you do it as it the knock voltage would suddenly rise and the ECU would cut the timing heavily. On a dyno curve you would see this as flat spots or dips in power. But again, no damage done.

Fuelling is a different matter, however our tune does not lean out the fuel mixture at full throttle for whoever is concerned about that. We have removed some of the fuelling at part throttle/low loads but this is for around-town fuel efficiency reasons.

On a personal note, I love the R36 as it is a fast car in my opinion whilst providing a luxury ride and all the toys you need. From a marketing point of view, it is difficult to sell an R36 tune as the gains are limited, but I would like the feeling of knowing that the engine is running at its peak, even if it only shaves a couple of tenths off a quarter mile run (not that many R36 owners would be doing that). The overall feel/character of the engine combined with fuel economy is, I believe, definitely worth it for the $730 asking price.

I was and still am away this weekend (went to another trackday at Winton) so R36 testing has been delayed slightly but will update everyone when more information is available.

[R36 DSG]

A dyno run will allow you to monitor in real time at speeds and loads not readily accessable on public roads, factors such as air/fuel ratios, knock levels and other readings that can help evaluate as to whether a tune is "safe".

[jasspa]

Guys, not sure if you have this issue, but I have always noticed that my R36 runs very rich especially on full throttle. This is very noticeable at night when someone is behind you with there headlights on and you take off and leave a cloud of smoke.. Hopefully a tune would fix this a bit as they seem to run quite rich..

[DNA Tuning]

Next time, try putting your foot down immediately after again; chances are you won't see a cloud of smoke. From what I can tell, the car warms up quite rich and leaves a fair bit of carbon deposits built up in the exhaust (sitting in the cats perhaps); when you go full throttle for the first time, the exhaust velocity dislodges all the built up carbon resulting in the smoke.

I would get a friend to follow you at night, try going full throttle once after the car warms up, and then do a similar run again straight after and see if you still get the puff of smoke. I can't imagine it being anywhere near as visible the second time.