towbar question

[Arctra]

I guess it comes down to what you want to use the towbar for.....

Exactly, horses for courses.

I regularly tow all kinds of stuff behind a RAV4 and a DualCab ute (both without ESP) and have never needed anything other than a bit of common sense and some road sense. (These are both obviously lacking in those that will vocalise disdain for anything not factory/dealer fitted )

Careful there mate, you're opening yourself up for the "well I used to drive a car without ESP and never had an accident, but that doesn't mean the ESP isn't safer" argument . Same thing with this I guess... if you are an experienced trailer user you probably don't need the Trailer Assist, but you would benefit from it. And for those who are not experienced at towing a trailer, Trailer Assist is probably a must.

I guess my post was more just to let people know what it was all about and the pro's and con's of going for the OEM wiring loom vs a dumb one.

[NZTiguan]

The other point to recognise is that people aren't going to own the car for its "lifetime" and what's OK for you might not be OK for the next owner/s. I'd like to think that people who are effectively bypassing some of the safety features of the vehicle at least leave some note of this in the vehicle so the next owner/s can put the "correct" system in should they so desire.

As I've said before I find it counterintuitive that when you own an expensive, superbly designed vehicle, such as the Tig, you'd scrimp over an issue like this, but maybe spend thousands upgrading the sound system ??

[Maverick]

I regularly tow all kinds of stuff behind a RAV4 and a DualCab ute (both without ESP) and have never needed anything other than a bit of common sense and some road sense. (These are both obviously lacking in those that will vocalise disdain for anything not factory/dealer fitted )

Careful there mate, you're opening yourself up for the "well I used to drive a car without ESP and never had an accident, but that doesn't mean the ESP isn't safer" argument . Same thing with this I guess... if you are an experienced trailer user you probably don't need the Trailer Assist, but you would benefit from it. And for those who are not experienced at towing a trailer, Trailer Assist is probably a must.

You're both missing the point, the car has ESP standard and it's irrelevant that you know what to do if the trailer or car gets out of control.

If something occurs and it calls for the ESP to kick in (and it doesn't take a lot for it to do so) the trailer/trail bike/whatever is being towed will confuse the ESP system and it will react in a different way potentially putting you in a worse position than if you didn't have ESP.

Unlike you the ESP doesn't have eyes and relies on a few sensors to know what is occurring and how to react.

Sharkie I'm all for the Volkswagen module as it integrates into the car correctly and whilst it may not be intended that the towbar would be used to tow anything at some point in the future it probably will maybe not by you but by a future owner. Personally I wouldn't want to sell a car knowing this it has a key safety system made unsafe under some circumstances especially when towing is probably when ESP is most likely to be called into action.

[Arctra]

You're both missing the point, the car has ESP standard and it's irrelevant that you know what to do if the trailer or car gets out of control.

If something occurs and it calls for the ESP to kick in (and it doesn't take a lot for it to do so) the trailer/trail bike/whatever is being towed will confuse the ESP system and it will react in a different way potentially putting you in a worse position than if you didn't have ESP.

Unlike you the ESP doesn't have eyes and relies on a few sensors to know what is occurring and how to react.

Hey Mav, I'm glad you've chimed in here as I know you're pretty knowledgeable about this sort of stuff. A couple of responses to what you're said above which I wouldn't mind your responses to (I'm not being argumentative, I'm trying to find stuff out):

1) To say it's irrelevant whether you know how to react to a trailer losing control when you have ESP doesn't sit well with me. ESP is a driver aid, and I would be more willing to give VW the benefit of the doubt that they would not put something on the car that makes it MORE dangerous than a car without it operated by a savvy driver.

The ESP would react quicker that you for sure, but would it really override your input to the point of being less stable? From what I understand, trailer assist will allow for more yaw when towing, so that would imply it would simply kick in earlier if you are towing without the proper wiring loom. Implications? Well, a lof of ABS noise, quicker wearing brakes, and an unpleasant driving experience if your trailer is heavy and swaying a lot, but I can't see what more would be caused.

I hear you on the somewhat "scare mongering" call of "potentially putting you in a worse position than if you didn't have ESP", but I counter it with the argument that you could get fatally injured crossing the road jay-walking. Yes, it could happen, but if your reasonably smart about things it's unlikely.

2) In my example of a bike carrier (as opposed to a proper trailer), the forces exerted on the rear of the vehicle are going to be different to those of a proper trailer. How would the extra weight of a 130km bike (plus whatever extra force is exerted on the rear of the car through the lever-effect of having the bike sticking out the back) be any different to having a heavy load (for arguments sake 200kg's) in the boot? Surely the Tiguans ESP is designed to handle a range of loads in the rear (with a typically German large-ish margin for safety)? I would actually be a little concerned that the Tiguan's ESP with the proper Trailer Assist loom would assume there is a trailer on when it's just the carrier, increase it's tolerances, and in so doing allow the rear to step out further than it ordinarily would be allowed to before ESP/Trailer Assist kicks in to save he day. Do you have any idea which is the greater threat to safety?

[NZTiguan]

Actra makes an interesting point when the coupling "isn't" being used for a trailer but one thing I can assure you of is that standard ESP does NOT work well with a trailer on. I know of a Kia owner who ended up jackknifed BECAUSE of the ESP (ie: dumb standard esp which didn't factor the trailer in). He was later advised by Kia to run with his ESP "OFF" when towing !!!. I personally doubt that the ESP would be slower to react with the trailer stabilisation switched "on" than normal but I'm no expert. I also suspect you'd be less likely to be sliding around on the road "needing" the ESP when you've got bikes hanging on your bumper !!

Cheers

[jimbomort]

Fellas, differing opinions on the effects aside, isn't the simple solution for those who are confident/accustomed to towing a trailer/van, to simply turn the ESP off, or am I missing something here?

I am not convinced that the ESP being on will be a problem, but I dont have any experience to speak from on that front. But it doesn't really matter, turn it off. Some of us will do that anyway when enjoying a bit of spirited driving For example the Golfs ESP is no fun on dirt roads, much more fun without it.

Now I know this is not simply whether ESP is a good thing or not, which I think it is, that it can be turned off, is great. I'm up for any driver aid that still gives the driver a choice, especially as I am not the only one who drives the car, ESP is bound to assist the Mrs in a pinch and me too, if I got caught out tired or just not paying enough attention at the wrong moment. ESP just doesn't like sliding, whereas from time to time some of us do

Also if it is a problem for towing, what is it? I dont think that has been adequately addressed by those suggesting it is, and what is the difference b/w a bike rack and a heavy load in the back as Arctra has queried?.

For eg from my very limited experience with towing, acceleration can be the answer to sorting out a snaking trailer, so are we suggesting the ESP will stop you from accelerating in cirumstances where you have a snaking trailer? (load distribution being the real problem aside)

Hey Mav, I'm glad you've chimed in here as I know you're pretty knowledgeable about this sort of stuff. A couple of responses to what you're said above which I wouldn't mind your responses to (I'm not being argumentative, I'm trying to find stuff out):

1) To say it's irrelevant whether you know how to react to a trailer losing control when you have ESP doesn't sit well with me. ESP is a driver aid, and I would be more willing to give VW the benefit of the doubt that they would not put something on the car that makes it MORE dangerous than a car without it operated by a savvy driver.

The ESP would react quicker that you for sure, but would it really override your input to the point of being less stable? From what I understand, trailer assist will allow for more yaw when towing, so that would imply it would simply kick in earlier if you are towing without the proper wiring loom. Implications? Well, a lof of ABS noise, quicker wearing brakes, and an unpleasant driving experience if your trailer is heavy and swaying a lot, but I can't see what more would be caused.

I hear you on the somewhat "scare mongering" call of "potentially putting you in a worse position than if you didn't have ESP", but I counter it with the argument that you could get fatally injured crossing the road jay-walking. Yes, it could happen, but if your reasonably smart about things it's unlikely.

2) In my example of a bike carrier (as opposed to a proper trailer), the forces exerted on the rear of the vehicle are going to be different to those of a proper trailer. How would the extra weight of a 130km bike (plus whatever extra force is exerted on the rear of the car through the lever-effect of having the bike sticking out the back) be any different to having a heavy load (for arguments sake 200kg's) in the boot? Surely the Tiguans ESP is designed to handle a range of loads in the rear (with a typically German large-ish margin for safety)? I would actually be a little concerned that the Tiguan's ESP with the proper Trailer Assist loom would assume there is a trailer on when it's just the carrier, increase it's tolerances, and in so doing allow the rear to step out further than it ordinarily would be allowed to before ESP/Trailer Assist kicks in to save he day. Do you have any idea which is the greater threat to safety?

[NZTiguan]

I think it would be a brave man indeed who would suggest he can "outthink" and "outperform" a specially designed system in the ESP to remove trailer tail shake etc. I repeat, just fit the correct system and you are then running the most up to date trailer safety system yet devised.

[Maverick]

1) To say it's irrelevant whether you know how to react to a trailer losing control when you have ESP doesn't sit well with me. ESP is a driver aid, and I would be more willing to give VW the benefit of the doubt that they would not put something on the car that makes it MORE dangerous than a car without it operated by a savvy driver.

ESP operates within set parameters and makes assumptions about loads. It makes these decisions based on steering wheel angle, direction of travel, g-force meters, wheels speed and so forth. If a trailer becomes unstable (and allowing for the pendulum affect I mentioned below) the car is going to apply the brakes to either the wrong wheels and/or possibly too hard or too lightly.

The ESP would react quicker that you for sure, but would it really override your input to the point of being less stable? From what I understand, trailer assist will allow for more yaw when towing, so that would imply it would simply kick in earlier if you are towing without the proper wiring loom. Implications? Well, a lof of ABS noise, quicker wearing brakes, and an unpleasant driving experience if your trailer is heavy and swaying a lot, but I can't see what more would be caused.

From what I've read on the trailer assist part of the ESP it requires the driver to do nothing if the trailer starts swaying and if the driver starts to turn the wheel it reduces the effectiveness.

If you don't have the trailer assist on the car will not react the same way especially if the trailer is moving from side to side as the car will make incorrect adjustments by braking the wrong wheels.

I hear you on the somewhat "scare mongering" call of "potentially putting you in a worse position than if you didn't have ESP", but I counter it with the argument that you could get fatally injured crossing the road jay-walking. Yes, it could happen, but if your reasonably smart about things it's unlikely.

Point taken but I'm coming from the view that you have a safety feature in your car and you're at best reducing it's effectiveness by not fitting a suitable interface. The manual I assume will mention the trailer esp and future buyers or users of the car would assume that it's there and the reaction required to a trailer swaying is very different if the esp knows there is a trailer or not.

2) In my example of a bike carrier (as opposed to a proper trailer), the forces exerted on the rear of the vehicle are going to be different to those of a proper trailer. How would the extra weight of a 130km bike (plus whatever extra force is exerted on the rear of the car through the lever-effect of having the bike sticking out the back) be any different to having a heavy load (for arguments sake 200kg's) in the boot? Surely the Tiguans ESP is designed to handle a range of loads in the rear (with a typically German large-ish margin for safety)? I would actually be a little concerned that the Tiguan's ESP with the proper Trailer Assist loom would assume there is a trailer on when it's just the carrier, increase it's tolerances, and in so doing allow the rear to step out further than it ordinarily would be allowed to before ESP/Trailer Assist kicks in to save he day. Do you have any idea which is the greater threat to safety?

With the bike sticking so far out the back I would see something like a pendulum affect occurring. Having 200kg in and around the rear axle is different to having 130kg attached to the car 1m behind the rear axle (isn't the tow ball limit around 75kg?).

If a trailer was connected at the rear the trailer weight might be 400kg with a tow ball weight of 50kg. Would this have more of an affect on the ESP or would the tow ball weight of 130kg?

Fellas, differing opinions on the effects aside, isn't the simple solution for those who are confident/accustomed to towing a trailer/van, to simply turn the ESP off, or am I missing something here?

How? You can't turn off the ESP entirely on any VAG car?

[Transporter]

Quick way to find out how sophisticated that wiring kit is; someone who has VW tow bar wiring opening the box to see what is inside, chances are, there would be just relays with the diodes.
Unfortunately my T5 doesn't have ESP (4motion didn't have that option in 2005).

[Maverick]

Quick way to find out how sophisticated that wiring kit is; someone who has VW tow bar wiring opening the box to see what is inside, chances are, there would be just relays with the diodes.
Unfortunately my T5 doesn't have ESP (4motion didn't have that option in 2005).

Doesn't it have a connection to the CAN bus network? If so there will be a fair bit more than relays etc.

[NZTiguan]

Quick way to find out how sophisticated that wiring kit is; someone who has VW tow bar wiring opening the box to see what is inside, chances are, there would be just relays with the diodes.
Unfortunately my T5 doesn't have ESP (4motion didn't have that option in 2005).

It's buried behind the side panels in the boot but believe me it does NOT just have a bunch of relays and diodes. It's an acknowledged safety factor in the Tiguan and VW would be in HUGE trouble if it did NOTHING more than allow the trailer wiring to not throw up faults which is what you're suggesting. Have a look on vortex and there are lots of descriptions of the required fitting and connections through the CANBUS etc. I'm quite sure on the other hand that any other "system" that costs less WILL be just be a bunch of relays and diodes to stop the faults being found by the Tig's brain !!

Frankly I'm absolutely staggered that Transporter would even suggest this !!!!

[Transporter]

It's buried behind the side panels in the boot but believe me it does NOT just have a bunch of relays and diodes. It's an acknowledged safety factor in the Tiguan and VW would be in HUGE trouble if it did NOTHING more than allow the trailer wiring to not throw up faults which is what you're suggesting. Have a look on vortex and there are lots of descriptions of the required fitting and connections through the CANBUS etc. I'm quite sure on the other hand that any other "system" that costs less WILL be just be a bunch of relays and diodes to stop the faults being found by the Tig's brain !!

Frankly I'm absolutely staggered that Transporter would even suggest this !!!!

Why? It is not that hard to imagine simple component in that box telling to Tig's brain "I'm towing now" and appropriate ESP setting for towing is selected.
Since it doesn't know what you're towing.
But I might be wrong.

Anyway I'll remove my tow bar box and compare the part no. to the newer T5with ESP.

[jimbomort]

How? You can't turn off the ESP entirely on any VAG car?

The manual is not entirely clear, but am I missing something by pressing the ESP button marked ESP OFF and noting that the sliding car symbol then stays on in the dash? Tried this on dirt in Golf 6 recently and seemed to me the ESP was OFF.

TRAILER ASSIST - hOW DOES IT KNOW YOU HAVE A TRAILER?
According to the manual, when the trailer electrical connection is used.

Mind you it is not apparent from the manual that there is any real way of telling whether the trailer program component of the ESP is in effect, but unless all factory fitted it appears unlikely.

Having now read about the trailer stabilisation program in the manual - yeh I should have read more of the thread before chipping in with "isn't the simple solution to turn the ESP off" Mind you still an option for those who dont think it will help.

[Maverick]

Why? It is not that hard to imagine simple component in that box telling to Tig's brain "I'm towing now" and appropriate ESP setting for towing is selected.
Since it doesn't know what you're towing.
But I might be wrong.

Anyway I'll remove my tow bar box and compare the part no. to the newer T5with ESP.

Trailer detector control box for Tiguan
16 pin connector -T16i-
12 pin connector -T12h-

Has CAN bus Hi and Lo, power etc connection from the car and has the trailer connector run from it so as far as I can see it's a smart box that controls the trailers lights independently of the car (by that I mean it turns on the brake lights, indicators etc by picking up the commands from the CAN bus network).

Volkswagen has these comments for dealers regarding the retrofitting.

"Factory fitted towing attachment
If the vehicle was supplied with a factory fitted towing attachment, everything with regards to the technical and legal requirements has already been taken care of.
It should be noted that from the start of 1988 a “13-pin” trailer socket is installed in place of the conventional “7-pin” socket. This new socket allows connection at a later stage of additional electrical consumers on the trailer, for which no provision was made in the old socket, e.g. for a reversing light.
If the trailer to be towed has a “7-pin” connector, an adapter cable available from Volkswagen dealerships can be used. "

"Retrofitted towing attachment
If the vehicle is to be equipped with a retrofit towing attachment, the following should be observed:
The towing attachment is a safety element. Therefore, only a type approved device designed specifically for the vehicle should be used. It is recommended that a towing attachment from the Volkswagen accessory programme is used as it is the same as the factory fitted devices. For these towing attachments, the installation instructions supplied also have our approval."

"Engine cooling
Since higher demands are placed on the engine cooling system when a trailer is being towed, the cooling system is uprated in conjunction with factory fitted towing attachments if this is a technical necessity. This entails the installation of a heavy duty radiator fan or second radiator fan and/or a larger radiator, for example. Vehicles with air conditioning and those prepared for topical climates with air conditioning already have an uprated engine cooling system. On the Passat, a heavy duty radiator fan (PR no. 0Y2) can also be installed in the factory on its own. This makes it easier to retrofit a trailer towing system.
The cooling system should also be uprated if a towing attachment is retrofitted and provision for this has not been made in the factory. If this is not done, overheating of the cooling system cannot be ruled out if the engine is placed under high load (gradients, high ambient temperatures, heavy trailer). During conversion, the parts listed in ETKA (electronic parts catalogue) must be used for engine cooling in combination with trailer towing. In addition, the work instructions from the relevant workshop manuals must be followed.
Uprating of the cooling system can only be dispensed with if there is assurance that the engine is not going to be placed under excessive load, e.g.:
stay well below the gross combination weight
high ambient temperatures are unlikely
the vehicle is not driven up long, steep gradients
no very long journeys are undertaken
In any case, the coolant temperature gauge must be monitored carefully. If the needle of the display moves too far into the hot zone, the speed of the vehicle should be reduced immediately. In an emergency, it may even be necessary to stop and allow the engine to cool down. In this instance, the engine should be allowed to idle for about 2 minutes to avoid any build up of heat.
Notet On vehicles with air conditioning, cooling of the engine can be assisted by switching off the air conditioning system. In this way, there will be an improvement in pulling away and overtaking.
t If an except is made in uprating the cooling system (i.e. uprating has been dispensed with), the new owner must be informed of this fact when the vehicle is sold. "

"Retrofitting trailer detector control unit -J345-
Retrofitting a trailer detector control unit -J345- is possible in essence but not easy because it has to be connected to the CAN data bus of the vehicle. Then the control unit must be coded "

"It is recommended that alternative control units available on the open market and not approved by Volkswagen are avoided without exception. If equipment of this type is installed, the guarantee will become void. Generally, these are connected to the reversing lights and not integrated in the electrical system of the vehicle, which makes far more sense. The consequence is that faulty diagnoses in the bulb failure warning system or malfunctions can occur, among other things. Furthermore, dimmed bulbs (combined brake and tail light) cannot be actuated."

[Maverick]

The manual is not entirely clear, but am I missing something by pressing the ESP button marked ESP OFF and noting that the sliding car symbol then stays on in the dash? Tried this on dirt in Golf 6 recently and seemed to me the ESP was OFF.

The ESP off turns off only a few of the (over 10) features that are in the braking system and ESP as we know it stays on but in a more limited capacity. You haven't been able to fully turn it off since the MY07 model on the golfs IIRC.

TRAILER ASSIST - hOW DOES IT KNOW YOU HAVE A TRAILER?
According to the manual, when the trailer electrical connection is used.

Mind you it is not apparent from the manual that there is any real way of telling whether the trailer program component of the ESP is in effect, but unless all factory fitted it appears unlikely.

As long as it's the VW control box fitted and CAN bus is connected along with the controller being programmed in to the gateway the system will work as per the factory one (read my post below for the exceptions).