Razor80 Stage 3 Allspace R Build

[doc_777]

Brakesdirect are reassuring that this kit is well suited to be fitted to OEM setup with no major issues. Also to be used with the standard rubber lines as there is some misconception between them and braided hoses. Advises my car is not 20 years old technology.

Would you suggest using there 4 pot version with the 355mm rotors over the 6 pot's?

mate, i’ll be completely up-front and say I know next to nothing about the ACTUAL upgrade on a current VW - @tigger73 is neck deep in this stuff currently so if I were you i’d listen carefully to his experiences and feedback.

what I would say however is this - number of pistons is not a reliable indicator of performance. My opinion only - a street car should not need more than a 4 piston caliper if it’s correctly matched to the rest of the braking system. You get the best combination of package size, weight etc.

with all due respect to the supplier you are dealing with, whether your vehicle is 20 years old or 2 months old is irrelevant - the most important part of the upgrade you are considering is whether your current master cylinder will push sufficient fluid volume relative to the volume of the replacement calipers. I don’t pretend to be an expert in such things, I just know how wrong it can all go. If he’s telling you (and importantly, users like tigger who are actually undertaking this process) that the master cylinder is up to the task - i’ve got no reason to question it.

[tigger73]

Yes i'm after a better bite as i'm sure the bite from the from 6's up front would be a lot sharper. Thought this may solve some braking issues in the wet maybe? Just don't want pads that'll chew the OEM rotors in no time.

Could I ask where you purchased all your goods from locally (PM me if it's a secret)?
The ETA for the hats and brackets are 4-6 weeks to be custom made (overseas I'm assuming) but could run into delays and ultimately delay things. Only issue they seem to have some negative reviews with their delivery times etc that concerns me, especially payment in full!

Your red calliper's in your thread looks real nice on a black car. Not sure what would suit mine, silver/grey or black?

You'll get better bite just from upgrading the pads to something with a higher friction coefficient. I personally found the stock pads to be a bit too "progressive" an you really had to stand on the brakes to get a decent level of braking.

Pads is also the cheapest route and I think you would solve 90% of your complaints with a decent performance street pad.

6 pot brakes are probably a bit of an over-kill, though they pull you up pretty well. You then have to worry about the person behind you not being able to brake so well and rear ending you.

I purchased all the brakes through my local workshop who I believe got them from Brakes Direct. Calipers had to come in from overseas but I think they had pretty much everything else in stock. Not sure about the brackets.

I would want payment in full also if I was custom ordering parts that may be difficult to resell. That's actually how I picked up this brake set-up. The workshop had ordered them in for a customer and got them painted up only for the customer not to pay for them. I ended up getting them for a good price but may not have chosen to go red (probably would have picked yellow) but not going to repaint them now.

[tigger73]

mate, i’ll be completely up-front and say I know next to nothing about the ACTUAL upgrade on a current VW - @tigger73 is neck deep in this stuff currently so if I were you i’d listen carefully to his experiences and feedback.

what I would say however is this - number of pistons is not a reliable indicator of performance. My opinion only - a street car should not need more than a 4 piston caliper if it’s correctly matched to the rest of the braking system. You get the best combination of package size, weight etc.

with all due respect to the supplier you are dealing with, whether your vehicle is 20 years old or 2 months old is irrelevant - the most important part of the upgrade you are considering is whether your current master cylinder will push sufficient fluid volume relative to the volume of the replacement calipers. I don’t pretend to be an expert in such things, I just know how wrong it can all go. If he’s telling you (and importantly, users like tigger who are actually undertaking this process) that the master cylinder is up to the task - i’ve got no reason to question it.

I agree that going to a a 4 pot set-up with some good pads would be more than sufficient for everyday road use.

After a bit more driving (since picking up yesterday) the pads are beginning to bite a bit better and take-up point is almost back to "normal". There may be a fraction bit more pedal travel but that is compensated for by how these things haul you up. Seriously you have to be concerned about people tailgating you as if you jump on these they'll have no chance of pulling up without taking out your rear bumper.

I know there's a few more people with Golf R's with 6 pot set-ups and Tig has the same BMC so I wouldn't be too concerned about it not being up to the task. Probably more a question of whether they are a necessary upgrade. If you were tracking/tarmac rally then I'd say they'd be worth it. But I'd say start with some performance street pads first before spending a decent chunk of change on a BBK.

[tigger73]

Pics of said brakes for reference:

[Razor80]

Thanks guys, I do appreciate all your advise and I understand what your talking about. I actually had my concerns going with the 6 pots and I can honestly say that these were recommended to me by them for street/track. I think he was trying to upsale me something that was an overkill!

I've only ever used 6 pots (Willwood) on an old modified Ford Escort MK2 RS2000 back in the UK (many moons ago) and had to have the pedal box modified with individual bias brake cylinders for front and rears rotors + dual clutch setup. The OEM setup was for 2 pot front & drums rear. These new mechanics has greatly changed since then with greater efficiency and better feel but I was still unsure if it'll work.

Anyway I am now leaning towards the 4 pot setup as I believe it's more what I was originally thinking of using. Which is daily street/freeway but would like to run it on a track day or up the strip, time permitting and when the wife will allow. Anyway just for fun and a rush...

I know just upgrading the pads would save a great deal $$$$ but I'm after that extra bite, responsiveness nature, weight reduction and a better appearance through the wheels. Not to mention it being something different to every other Tig around... Down the track I may seek more power, engine strengthened etc who knows...

Anyway my question - What are the original calipers on the Tiguan/Golf R's?
After much googling, I can't find much information if they are 1 large piston or 2 piston for fronts, rear is 1 piston I think judging by images? I think the rotor size Front 340x32 & Rear 312x12?

I am thinking of either of these - Racingline Performance Monoblock Brake Upgrade - MK7 R/GTI, S3, VRS - Harding Performance or CAR98COM/VE355MM | Alcon CAR98 Caliper Brake Kit what's your thoughts?

[tigger73]

Anyway my question - What are the original calipers on the Tiguan/Golf R's?
After much googling, I can't find much information if they are 1 large piston or 2 piston for fronts, rear is 1 piston I think judging by images? I think the rotor size Front 340x32 & Rear 312x12?

Tiguan/Allspace 162 are front: 340x30 and rear: 300 x 12
Golf R are front: 340x30 and rear: 310x22

The calipers on the Golf R are different though. Pretty sure both are 2 pot (1 larger piston each side).

I am thinking of either of these - Racingline Performance Monoblock Brake Upgrade - MK7 R/GTI, S3, VRS - Harding Performance or CAR98COM/VE355MM | Alcon CAR98 Caliper Brake Kit what's your thoughts?

The Racingline are only 345mm discs so the actual braking performance is not significantly better than stock (marginal), however they do claim that repeated braking is greatly improved in terms of repeated stops.

The Alcon 4 pots are 355mm so you probably would notice a slight improvmenet with these and again it's going to be the repeated applications where the aftermarket kit is going to be an advantage.

This probably moreso comes down to the pads and how well the pads are able to cope with high temperatures without breaking down.

[Razor80]

Tiguan/Allspace 162 are front: 340x30 and rear: 300 x 12
Golf R are front: 340x30 and rear: 310x22

The calipers on the Golf R are different though. Pretty sure both are 2 pot (1 larger piston each side).

Thanks for clearing that up - Interesting why they put a skinner rotor on a heavier car! Or are the Tiguan's meant to be stock standard.
So in saying this B/D was suggesting this if I was upgrading the rear rotors and pad https://brakesdirect.com.au/aus/f2d-350-22-aar-r-forza-2-piece-brake-disc-350mm-upgrade-including-red-carrier-right.html so this wouldn't fit if this is much thicker or is that what the carrier is for the adaption?


The Racingline are only 345mm discs so the actual braking performance is not significantly better than stock (marginal), however they do claim that repeated braking is greatly improved in terms of repeated stops.

The Alcon 4 pots are 355mm so you probably would notice a slight improvmenet with these and again it's going to be the repeated applications where the aftermarket kit is going to be an advantage.

This probably moreso comes down to the pads and how well the pads are able to cope with high temperatures without breaking down.

I found these guys that have the Wilwoods -

Audi/VW Black Caliper w/Black Drilled & Slotted Rotor Front Brake Kit (Hat) 0

and these guys have the Brembo or AP Racing -

Race Brakes Sydney | Brakes so will get some pricing and see what they can do. Is there a maximum rotor size on the 4 piston setup?

[Razor80]

*Tried to edit my comment above but crashed*

Thanks for clearing that up - Interesting why they put a skinner rotor on a heavier car! Or are the Tiguan's meant to be stock standard.
So in saying this B/D was suggesting this if I was upgrading the rear rotors and pad F2D.350.22.AAR-R | Forza 2 Piece Brake Disc 350mm Upgrade Including RED Carrier (Right) so this wouldn't fit if this is much thicker or is that what the carrier is for the adaption?

I found these guys that have the Wilwoods -

Audi/VW Black Caliper w/Black Drilled & Slotted Rotor Front Brake Kit (Hat)

and these guys have the Brembo or AP Racing -

Race Brakes Sydney | Brakes so will get some pricing and see what they can do. Is there a maximum rotor size on the 4 piston setup?

[Razor80]

It won't be long until your itching to install it all. I will be faced with the same issue, how am I going to hide all the extra power and sound once it's done hmmm lol

Congratulations with your newborn - Precious times ahead .
Yes my tuner 2-3 days but has offered a runaround for the duration but I can hire a family car through my cousins work to make it more practical to pickup my daughter from childcare. See if they can offer that, no harm in asking.

I'm getting some assistance on my other thread, 6 piston an overkill but rotor size on 4 pisions not big enough.

I wonder if the Golf R wagons would fit straight on since there slighly longer or perhaps the Passat? Would solve extending the tips.

[tigger73]

To be honest If you're not going to go much bigger than the 340mm stock front brakes you may as well just upgrade the pads/rotors and be done with it. It really depends what you're chasing. 2 piece rotors will be lighter than the stock set-up so will reduce the rotating mass which is always a good thing. The stock calipers are pretty damn heavy too as they're cast stainless and weigh a ton. That being said you're driving an SUV so if you were really concerned about weight you'd be driving a hot hatch.

The 1 off braking performance between a 340mm stock set-up and a 345mm 4 pot you probably wouldn't notice. You'll pay a fair bit to change them over which is why I'd suggest just doing a pad/rotor change (optional) and paint them.

Unless you're going to significantly larger rotors you won't be achieving much in terms of better braking because you need the larger diameter and bigger contact area to make a noticeable difference.

So I'd either hunt around for some second-hand 4 pots if you really want to change the calipers or save up for a 380mm 6 pot set-up.

Even if you're doing some happy laps on the track a pad upgrade is probably all you really need.

The other thing to consider (and it's more of an issue on the Golfs) is if the larger brake calipers will fit under your wheels. I know a few people that have tried (and failed) to fit BBK's on Golfs and then had to fit spacers/got into problems with wheel poke and then had to get new wheels to fix the poke problem. It's less of an issue on the Tiguan due to the car running 10+mm more offset than Golf but something to keep in mind.

[MickyD]

considering the stock brakes will trigger the ABS when the tyres start to slip, surely the tyres are the limiting factor for stopping the car....

[tigger73]

considering the stock brakes will trigger the ABS when the tyres start to slip, surely the tyres are the limiting factor for stopping the car....

Actually the brakes make a decent difference. ABS only really kicks in at lower speeds but the brakes will wash off the vast majority before they "lock":

[Beedub]

The Golf R wagon mufflers are split, and the way they are routed with the downpipe is different as well, so that's a no go.
Tigger posted an under car shot of one in the exhaust thread.
I can't comment on the Passat but pretty sure it's also incompatible.
Those that have done the muffler swap have nothing but good things to say about it, and how simple it is.

I've been reading the brake discussion with interest.
I definitely think the rotors need to be replaced, front and rear, as the OEM ones are soft.
Perhaps a combination of a good aftermarket rotor and a good set of grippy pads is the solution, but I can't deny seeing a pair of 6 pots on the Tig gives me a stirring, haha.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Melbourne_Tiggy]

Final mods to be installed. Estimated power figure to be around 270-280kw's (362-375BHP) @ wheels. Should go really well

Snail IS38 480HP Hybrid Turbo
CTS MQB Downpipe with Magnaflow 200 Cell Catalyst
CTS 600 Intercooler
CTS Air Intake
CTS Intake Elbow
CTS Dog Bone Insert
Turbosmart Dual Port DV
Stage 3 ECU & DSG tune

Apparently the stock pump is still good unless I chase more power. I will update the cat-back exhaust later down the track with the MK7 Golf R system (seen on other threads that this fits) as I don't want the annoying drone sound and will extend to the tips.

Can you guys think of anything I could consider adding or changing???
I thought about getting the P3 multi vent gauge if this will fit the Tiguan vent (hopefully not too complicated), or best using OBDEleven apps to monitor things?

Your list looks solid. Don’t forget good spark plugs! I changed my flappy paddles to the racing line ones...they are very awesome, feels more like a solid rs feel.

If you have any power/time stats after install I’ll post them on the is38 and big turbo front page/summary thread.

[Razor80]

Ahh that's a real shame, thought that'll be a easier fix with one of those back boxes. The Golf R it is then...

This discussion on the brakes is really twisting my brains, I know what I want and what I don't want is to replace it all after a few months if I opted for just pads/rotors. I might have to "bite the bullet" and order it so I can't change my mine. Being a Gemini is hard work lol