Depress Clutch to Start - Manual cars

[sillywet]

haha that's epic. George, were you just trawling the forum for somewhere to unleash? It seems your current car is sans-clutch pedal anyway?

wai - the dagger in the airbag comment is a cracker. my old man's old S4 (the big one based on the 100 series) used to have this cable arrangement where in a front end prang the steering column would essentially pulls itself up and out of the way. Yet because it was destined for the US, they had to instal an airbag too. So basically the airbag would have cushioned the impact for nothing more than the roof lining.

[brad]

I was always taught to depress the clutch to remove the drag of the gearbox from the starting process (geez the starter motors must have been weak back then!!!).

Friend of mine got a manual Outback (years ago) for her company car. One of the conditions was it was also a pool car for her employer (who suggested she buy an automatic). You wouldn't believe how many numpties put it into the wall because they didn't depress the clutch on start-up.

[wai]

I was always taught to depress the clutch to remove the drag of the gearbox from the starting process (geez the starter motors must have been weak back then!!!).

I was taught to have the transmission in neutral and the clutch pedal out to reduce the drag of the gearbox! With the car in gear and the clutch pedal depressed, there is more drag than with the clutch out and the transmission in neutral.

I know that on my Mini (the original real one), and my Hiace, when stationary and in neutral and then engaging 1st, you could hear and feel the transmission engage, even with the clutch pedal fully depressed. Not enough to drive the cars, but enough drag to be noticed.

With the clutch pedal depressed, there is the friction of the throw out bearing to consider. It is not much, and in the grand scheme of things nothing to write home about.

What started this is why should the driver be required to depress the clutch pedal, even with the transmission in neutral. Even manual cars these days will have a gear position indicator so they have the switchgear to know what gear they are in. All it needs is a relatively simple change in the logic where the clutch only needs to be depressed when you try to start the engine AND the transmission is not in neutral.

I have to say that in the 35+ years of driving and having owned and driven a number of different cars ranging from an XM Falcon (manual), right through to my Hiace (can't include the Caddy as it will not let me start unless the foot brake is depressed even if the transmission is in neutral or park!), I have NEVER been able to fully start the engine with the manual transmission in gear and the clutch out, or in an automatic with the transmission in drive or reverse. In the manual cars, yes, it would bunny hop, but not for more than a foot or so (not even one complete revolution of the wheel). In automatics, the engine would whirr away (very slowly) trying to start, but the car would not move and the engine would not fire up.

Again, it is up to VW, but chances are they will not change a thing. They have not done this with other matters that are more important so I would not hold my breath.

[brad]

In automatics, the engine would whirr away (very slowly) trying to start, but the car would not move and the engine would not fire up.

Which automatic allows the starter motor to work when the selector isn't in P or N?

[Corey_R]

The DSG can be started in D... but only if the motor is switched off in D.

As the DSG isn't a "real" automatic (torque converter), the engine has to be running to get it into P. So if you accidently turn off the engine whilst in D, or for some reason your car is stalled, it will let you start it again in D. I have only had to do this once, and I wasn't in a position to risk seeing whether it would let me start it without the brake on or not. The DSG gearbox portion is mechanically a manual gearbox, so theoretically the clutch is probably "in" so it wouldn't move anyway. But then, no idea whether or not it needs engine power to engage/disengage the clutch etc. If it did need the engine on to operate the clutch packs, then I guess the clutch state would then still be the same as when the power was cut...

[brad]

font of info Corey

[MkVIGTI]

I know. I have had to turn the ignition back on and off when I have failed to remember this.

You can actually shift the gear lever from N to P when the engine is off actually, don't need to turn the engine back on.

[Corey_R]

You can actually shift the gear lever from N to P when the engine is off actually, don't need to turn the engine back on.

What you wrote here went against what I just wrote on the previous page. I wrote that based on my experience with a MKV GTI and from the info in the VAG "02E" gearbox information (6 speed wet clutch DSG in most peoples language!). Anyway, I had to go out so I tried this when I got back to work.

You're right, you can now move from N to P when the engine is off. From D to P inf act. The selector lever lock solenoid (same for both N and P) doesn't engage until you get to P (you can hear it engage if the windows are up and radio off). BUT, the car wouldn't let me take the key out of the ignition. The ignition key withdrawal lock solenoid is linked in with the DSG and its lever lock solenoid. When you stop your car, put your foot on the brake, put it in P, then turn off the ignition, all the sensors acknowledge the process has been done and you can take your key out. If the engine is turned off before it's in P, you can't remove your key.

I had to turn the ignition to "on" (but not start the engine) before I heard more "clicks" from the gearbox and was able to then turn the key all the way back and remove the key.

It makes me wonder if the engine (and ignition) is off, whether moving from D to P is actually doing anything in the gearbox. Presumably it's still not, as per my post and the original DSG publications, otherwise why not also let the key be removed? I guess by at least letting the operator move the selector to N or P that it means less stranded motorists calling VW road side assistance in a panic because they're not sure whether to restart the car when it's stuck in D.


Anyway, I guess all this DSG talk is getting off topic

[wai]

You can actually shift the gear lever from N to P when the engine is off actually, don't need to turn the engine back on.

Yes, but the the ignition key cannot be turned enough to release it from the lock until the ignition is turned back on with the transmission put into N or P, and then the key turned all the way off so that it can be removed from the lock.

[Corey_R]

that's what I just said

[MkVIGTI]

that's what I just said

Except shorter

[Mi16 Man]

Thx for all the comments and notes.....

Will still ask my dealer to bypass the setting.

Cheers
Stu

[brad]

Thx for all the comments and notes.....

Will still ask my dealer to bypass the setting.

Cheers
Stu

may as well try & piddle into a stiff Southerly for all the good it will do you

[wai]

Thx for all the comments and notes.....

Will still ask my dealer to bypass the setting.

Cheers
Stu

I knew there had to be a way around things.

I have seen posts where owners have fitted a remote starting system (to warm things up). Now the whole advantage of this is so that you don't have to be in the vehicle to start it.

So without Inspector Gadget legs, such a system must check for things like the gear selector position and the setting of the hand brake before it will remotely start the vehicle.

You may not want to pay for the remote start system, so all you would have to do is mimic what it does.

At least there is a way out.