Mk6 Golf R dyno question

[Guy_H]

To be fair, the "stock" car was a brand new facelifted S3 (195kw) which is known to have a little more torque than the older 188kw version. It was also the hottest day in Sydney for 7 years from memory. The good thing from the test is there were so many same cars run on the same day. The Revo car was also a facelift, the others were pre facelift.

The 3 stage 3 S3's all ran 253 all wheel kw.

In this post there are the results of the runs, including torque figures, KW, Intake temps (VCDS Internal) and ambient starting temps.

Also did some heat soaking runs to demonstrate exactly how intake temps dramatically effect wheel power.

S3 / TTS / GTI Pirelli Sydney Dyno Day

[Jasonpb]

Who offers the revo tune in Perth? does look pretty decent on the graph especially down low but then you don't know how much timing is in that map.

I guess the good thing about me doing this test is it will be done on the same day on a mainline dyno using the same car, not a bunch of different cars where people are unsure of what modifications, 100% stock golf R the only difference will be the tune.

[Tim]

I suggest people log the "component protection" parts of their tune, I'm not naming any tune in particular (are you worried Tim?) but certainly EGT control & the "method" of making a peak HP number is not always the same.

This thread is about dyno testing Golf R's, certainly we have had 5 separate Golf R's on different dyno's & have good experience with them.

You sell a product & you have just stated you have never run one on a dyno, let alone pulled data from one - how come you are the expert in this post?

Im not involved in the development nor do I have any significant financial interest in the product listed on my site. Im geared around bringing competitive product to the market at competitive prices. I dont have anything to do with product development nor am I a tuner.

I am merely stating that your comments are quite often inflamatory and geared around fear mongering. So no im not "scared" at all as you put it. Am I the only person that can see the danger in making such broad statements? At this stage poor Mr consumer is reading your post and thinking wow I should be worried if im not purchasing an APR product.

Im not trying to start a fight. I just want you to stop making comments like the above. I will pull you up on it every time I read one. It has nothing to do with me or what I sell. Its about whats fair for the rest of the market players and fair to consumers as a whole.

[Guy_H]

Sorry Tim, I disagree - the point of the post is to "educate" not "fear mongering". I'm sorry if you can not tell the difference between the two. If that's the case it's probably better for you not to comment as you are coming across as "sour grapes"

The OP asked questions about dyno testing / methods & I don't see any of your posts helping him out?

[Tim]

Sorry Tim, I disagree - the point of the post is to "educate" not "fear mongering". I'm sorry if you can not tell the difference between the two. If that's the case it's probably better for you not to comment as you are coming across as "sour grapes"

The OP asked questions about dyno testing / methods & I don't see any of your posts helping him out?

Youre right and I appologise to the OP for ruining his thread. But let me educate you on how to educate someone without getting a dig in at someone else.

Your original post.

Hey Jason, You local APR dealer (Quattro motors) can arrange if needed.

If you get a VCDS cable you can log some interesting things - some people make their power by means that shorten engine component life Try logging block 112-4, even on the road, you might be shocked at what some do!

Let me know if you need help arranging!

What it could have said

Hey Jason, You local APR dealer (Quattro motors) can arrange if needed.

If you get a VCDS cable you can log some interesting things - Try logging block 112-4, even on the road, check for parameter XYZ.. This is where you may identify if you have an issue or not.

Let me know if you need help arranging!

Again I appologise. But I wont stand by whilst you push your agenda in such a manner under the guise of helping someone. So no sour grapes. I just dont see your help as being overly genuine. Its always got a dollar sign attached to it.

[Guy_H]

Wow, sorry Tim, you have deep issues.

The reason I stated what I stated because it needs to be tested as I stated. The OP has access to a dyno & VCDS. If you don't like the way I put it, please start your own thread on marketing & grammar but leave the dyno thread alone (as you have nothing to contribute).

[schoona]

Pretty savage. Pipe down fellas.
I can see Tim's point for sure.
The forum is notorious for being an APR fanboi one, (I have an APR tune on my mk4 R32 btw), so I can understand the need for partiality when making a comment like that above.

Dyno graphs and all that crap mean squat anyway, unless its a tune on the same dyno, same conditions. The last Sydney dyno day, everyone seemed to be running low, for whatever reason. The only way that is valuable is in comparison with the other cars on the day. You cvlaim about 185awkw for an S3/R, if in different conditions the car makes 175 is that misleading? No.

There is too much variation and forum hype about "how much will my stage 1 flash tune give me for my money".

I'd save the money and get similar figures by going with GIAC if it was me, looking for a generic flash tune.
What you charge for an APR tune can buy you a "custom" tune elsewhere, taking into account model year, kms, mods, type of driving done etc.

As an example, done on a DD dyno, dads 05 GTI made 123kw at the wheels. (by the 15% rule) that is bang on 147 flywheel kw.
On a Mainline dyno, it made 132 kw with the additoion of 19" wheel's amd a Forge Twintake. Did it actually make 9 wkw? No/ Worth the money on driving experience, yes. Point being not all the talk is peak kw numbers. The torque figure rarely gets thrown around, dyno graphs get manipulated, different conditions...way too many variables top pull yourself opver 5-10wkw with a generic tune.

Don't think Tim needed that s obluntly.
APR is a good product and it serves a purpose. It is an option. People that feel comfortable going there will.

[Jasonpb]

Had a bit of a play with the logging out on the street and I am rather impressed with just how much you can log.

Not sure if it logs higher than 999c on "Median - Exhaust Temp" but it was frequently up near there. Few missfires were counted and timing was being pulled across all four cylinders, especially on number two during acceleration.

Guy if I go with the trial tune to test that first should I be able to flash it back to the stock tune using the bluefin device? if so that would make things easier as I could keep the car on the dyno and do APR, stock and then Superchips all in the one night without having to remove the car off the dyno.

As far as testing goes I figured three runs on each tune with logging via my laptop, Guy what fields should I be logging here as I would like to do the logging in those three runs without running four times on each section of that article you provided.

Interesting that the mainline read higher, here in Perth it's pretty common knowledge that a dyno dynamics will read higher than a mainline dyno which is why most people will visit a workshop with a DD dyno before posting the graphs up on a forum. Either way the dyno is less than six months old and the conditions will be the same for all three tunes, if it reads high on tune 1 it will read high on tune 2 and 3....

[Guy_H]

Hey Jason,

Thats a good indication of where you are at the moment. That EGT field only reads to 999 because VW don't expect to breach it. On tuned cars you may see it reach over 950 C, but the important thing to watch for is it coming back down to under 940 (when the component protection map kicks in). Obviously a good redline pull shows the heat & protection cycles (if the protection cycle is still there).

Logging, I would do fuel / boost / timing pull - referenced to intake temp, air mass, RPM & Engine load. You will gets lots of useful data from that.

Bluefin struggles to flash over APR, but APR can flash over Bluefin OK - due to that, it would be best to do your stock & bluefin runs first, then get APR loaded for the test & removed when you are finished. I will have to co ordinate with Quattro Motors for you to get it done on the same day but shouldn't be an issue.

[Jasonpb]

Ok, I will confirm when I can do it and let you know. Quattro motors is located just on the other side of the river to me so a 10 minute drive sweet!

[fuzion]

tim,

like people have said before about a certain thing.. "its all about the sales and how you sell it, not about the knowledge or tuning" .. i think you know what i mean :p lol

[fuzion]

You can unplug the rear Haldex unit for dyno testing - no problem for a 2wd dyno. Some AWD dyno's & some operators can struggle, so 2WD is an easy option.

P.S. it's not the AFR's you need to watch when testing a tune, its the actual & projected EGT's - we have seen some tunes that are off the readable scale!. I think also the difference in Torque curves will be the most significant thing you will see between tunes.

http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/f21/sydney-dyno-day-sunday-october-17th-49363-7.html

As Fuzion mentioned, There has been a lot of S3's run in dyno comparisons, and several Golf R's now. Golf R's with stage 1 have pulled around 188kw's wheel, and with the addition of a fuel pump (APR stage 1+) make around 188kw. I think Fuzions one makes ~ 186kw according to the above link with all his mods. Unfortunately none of this shows tractive effort (torque).

Here is a Golf R dyno for comparison (torque visible).

Welcome to Advanced Service Centre, Toowoomba Queensland - APR Stage One on a Golf R

As mentioned on the day my car wasnt running right. It seemed i killed a diverter valve again and my pcv even tho replaced recently was the "old" revision apparently. changed since and car feels quite different so soon to see again what it does when i get the chance.

I did notice mine came in a lot more bottom end then the apr tune originally on the car when i moved onto the normal giac tune but then later to the extreme which is different altogether from base tune. But thats my opinion!

[VW Central]

GIAC Extreme FTW!

[Buller_Scott]

GIAC Extreme FTW!

careful, an ''industry expert'' might make things personal, and tell you that "you have deep issues..."

at least that kind of attitude helps one contextualize some of the conversations that were taking place at DOVW last sunday...

[fuzion]

careful, an ''industry expert'' might make things personal, and tell you that "you have deep issues..."

at least that kind of attitude helps one contextualize some of the conversations that were taking place at DOVW last sunday...

BullerScott, im taking those comments from you quite hurtful and very deep and i feel that you need to let yourself go with the butterflies of the chipped world and be one, and be many.. you are free..