Delay on take-off (DSG)

[logger]

The new VWs are actually very intelligent. Your car is actually learning & remembering your driving style. Therefore after a while
you will notice that the car has adjusted to your drive style.

I know the sales people tell us this. But I reckon it is just marketing hype. The car is not intelligent and does not learn your "driving style". It uses a system where it adapts to the to the engage positions and end points of a plethora of components. In the DSG it adapts to things like clutch, gear and syncro engage points. Clutch slip thresholds and so on. It uses all this info to "remember"/adapt to where all these points are so it can function properly. These adaptations change due to condition's and wear. So while the adaptations will likely be different for a little old Granny and some lead foot hoon, I doubt you or the DSG7 would be able to ascertain which one was which.

Somewhere I have a copy of a drive cycle you can go through, to fast adapt the DSG7, after resetting it. Involves driving in all gears at certain revs for a certain period. Reversing, starting stopping and so on. Essentially it is to allow to system to "see" its full regime and to correctly adapt to all the positions of the various components. Until this process is complete, the DSG may not run optimally. By clever design it treats it like a checklist, so if you can only partially complete the test items, it will keep count and mark of the rest when subsequently the missing items are achieved in day to day driving.

There are few things to try to minimise the lag:

Put in 1 and push it back to D once the car is moving.
Other members suggest APR stage 1.
The recent "recall-like" software update, reduced the lag significantly for me.

APR stage 1 definitely reduces the lag. I reckon it is due to improved throttle response.

Unfortunately the "recall-like" software had the opposite effect for me. This update returned my LAG because it overwrote and removed the APR stage 1 tune.

While waiting for the tune to get put back on, I spent a couple of weeks telling myself I was in a 1.4 litre, 4 cylinder car. Had to keep reminding myself of the potential for delay-on-takeoff and to drive it accordingly! Still got caught a couple of times.

I wasn't happy with the lag either, when i first got my 118 tsi wagon a few week ago. I also wasn't cool with how the dsg changed into 2nd almost as soon as you started to move forward. It created a really wonky kind of ride until you got going, then from 2nd-7th it would be smooth as.
I was reading some posts on another thread here, that mentioned a method of resetting the dsg by pressing the accelerator all the way down for 10-20 seconds with the key out and the car at operating temp. thought it would be a long shot but gave it a go. Once you do the reset it then said to teach the dsg by driving through the gears 1st-7th and then slow down so it changes back down through the gears again to 1st ,then cruise along in 1st for 100mtrs or so.

To my surprise, it worked!!!! .

I suspect it worked purely because the adaptation process was completed sometime around when you did your accelerator press thingy. I have tested this mythical procedure numerous times with VAGCOM diagnotics and it does not reset the DSG. On the other hand you can readily reset the DSG with VAGCOM and you immediately see the Clutch adaptation counters reset to Zero. Main thing is your DSG7 is behaving for you now though.

The DSG is a manual gearbox.... so when you're at the lights, it's already put itself into neutral. That's why there is that lag on take off.

Clever manual to be able to put itself into neutral. But I get what you mean.

Just to check .... would a stage 1 chip on the 118 reduce this delay at all e.g. can the remap adjust the gearbox timings?

YEP - As mentioned earlier, I suspect the improved throttle response reduces the delay.
If you are in a hurry you have to be careful not to spin the wheels on launch though. So it is a bit of a trade off. With the tune, I have never been caught with that scary pregnant pause I sometimes got when turning right at a T intersection when trying to whip ahead of oncoming traffic.
Try the demo and you will see. You will also see that it indirectly changes how the DSG7 behaves. It will hold gears longer up hills and alter when you see certain gear changes occur.

My 118 DSG took a week or so of driving before the takeoff became consistent. Its got 5000+ ks on it now and the lag is now negligible. I didn't bother with the procedure you followed. I wonder how much is me getting used to the car although I've had regular auto drivers drive it since who had no problems driving it smoothly.

My guess is it probably a combination of both. You getting used to it and plenty of adaptation cycles happening.

[dopey]

I know the sales people tell us this. But I reckon it is just marketing hype. The car is not intelligent and does not learn your "driving style". It uses a system where it adapts to the to the engage positions and end points of a plethora of components. In the DSG it adapts to things like clutch, gear and syncro engage points. Clutch slip thresholds and so on. It uses all this info to "remember"/adapt to where all these points are so it can function properly. These adaptations change due to condition's and wear. So while the adaptations will likely be different for a little old Granny and some lead foot hoon, I doubt you or the DSG7 would be able to ascertain which one was which.

The thing I've found is that the DSG's when new seem to love shooting straight for the highest gear possible leaving the car bogged down and sluggish. The couple I've driven that have higher kms on them (6k and 10k respectively) seem to hold the gears a little longer under normal acceleration which to me makes a big difference in driveability. My old Mitsubishi Verada used to do this, shifting too early which was annoying, possibly due to the previous owners more relaxed driving style. After an ECU reset the transmission soon changed its shift points to better suit how I was driving the car. There's no spooky super intelligence to it, just the simple factor of it adjusting shift points to suit how hard you usually hit the accelerator..

[G-rig]

Why wouldn't it adapt to how you drive?

[CrimDub]

I suspect it worked purely because the adaptation process was completed sometime around when you did your accelerator press thingy. I have tested this mythical procedure numerous times with VAGCOM diagnotics and it does not reset the DSG. On the other hand you can readily reset the DSG with VAGCOM and you immediately see the Clutch adaptation counters reset to Zero. Main thing is your DSG7 is behaving for you now though.

you mean it's in my head? I would have bet money on the fact it was different to drive straight after i did the accelerator thingy (tech term). like you said, at least I am happy with it now...

[Corey_R]

i find there is a delay when switching from drive to reverse, which is not great when rolling downhill towards a gutter, it means you have to fully stop when doing a 3 point turn on a hill, or risk smashing front bar into gutter.

Why wouldn't you come to a complete stop between putting a car from drive into reverse, and vice versa? Not coming to complete stop is one of the worst things you can do to your gearbox!!!!

[ddre78]

Yes, anyone with any sympathy for their car stops when changing direction. Manual, Auto or DSG.

[logger]

Why wouldn't it adapt to how you drive?

"adapt to how you drive" is not quite the same as the OP's "learning & remembering your driving style" but semantics aside here goes.

1)because it doesnt
2)because it would serve little useful purpose
3)because driving style is subjective and encompasses many things beyond what goes on in the gearbox.
4)it would have a negative impact on vehicles driven frequently by multiple drivers.

What is does do however, is adapt/learn the current conditions and parameters within the gearbox. It then applies this to future use. So after being reset, the DSG ECU will use defaults for clutch and gear selector positions. Because the ECU is yet to adapt and refine them to their actual values, performance of the DSG will be reduced. For example changes may not be as smooth as you would expect. Now as you drive the car "The electronic control unit learns (adapts) the positions of the clutches and the positions of the gear selectors when a gear is engaged and takes what has been learnt into consideration for further operation of these components." (ref. DSG7 SSP)
So in theory two different drivers (with different driving styles) could well result in differing adaptation values. But the real design intent of the system is to enable the Gearbox to continuously adapt to dynamic clutch and gear selector positions. Is has nothing to do with learning how someone drives.

I reckon it is clever marketing spin or just Gilding the Lilly to say "it needs to adapt to your driving style" instead of saying it "needs to adapt to the gear and clutch positions which can be somewhat influenced by how you drive". It is more palatable and makes the driver think the car is actually very intelligent.

[Corey_R]

Sounds like one gearbox more than necessary and a lot of extra weight.

Isn't it one gearbox with two clutches?

Both the 7sp and 6sp DSG equate to 20kg difference in weight on the entire car. Considering it's one of the lowest points of the car, it's hardly "a lot of extra weight".

On a side note, the new Polo GTI is only available in 7sp DSG because "the manual gearbox does not fit".

And no, for the purpose of my statement, the explanation of two manual gearboxes strapped together is correct. It is more than just "one gearbox with two clutches".
To quote Volkswagen:

The direct shift gearbox comprises in essence of two transmission units that are independent of each other.

Each tranmission unit is constructed in the same way as a manual gearbox. Allocated to each transmission unit is a multi-plate clutch.

Both multi-plate clutches are of the wet type and work in DSG oil. They are regulated, opened and closed by the mechatronics system, depending on the gear to be selected.

1st, 3rd, 5th and reverse gear are selected via (multi-plate clutch one). 2nd, 4th and 6th gear are selected via (multi-plate clutch plate two).

One transmission unit is always in gear and the other transmission unit has the next gear selected in preparation but with the clutch still in the open position.

Every gear is allocated a conventional manual gearbox synchronisation and selector element.

[Dubya]

To quote Volkswagen:
The direct shift gearbox comprises in essence of two transmission units that are independent of each other.

Each tranmission unit is constructed in the same way as a manual gearbox. Allocated to each transmission unit is a multi-plate clutch.

Both multi-plate clutches are of the wet type and work in DSG oil. They are regulated, opened and closed by the mechatronics system, depending on the gear to be selected.

1st, 3rd, 5th and reverse gear are selected via (multi-plate clutch one). 2nd, 4th and 6th gear are selected via (multi-plate clutch plate two).

One transmission unit is always in gear and the other transmission unit has the next gear selected in preparation but with the clutch still in the open position.

Every gear is allocated a conventional manual gearbox synchronisation and selector element.

Volkswagen said all of that with all of those typos?

[Corey_R]

lol - nah - that was me typing quickly during a lunch break from a source where all the text was in "pictures" and therefore not copy and pasteable. I'd fix it up, but everyone here is intelligent enough to understand the post and that my comments are correct.

[Dubya]

lol - nah - that was me typing quickly during a lunch break from a source where all the text was in "pictures" and therefore not copy and pasteable. I'd fix it up, but everyone here is intelligent enough to understand the post and that my comments are correct.

Thanks for confirming that your own comments are correct. Most reassuring!

[cameronp]

I noticed when driving to work today that the DSG would get into gear and keep the clutch at the ready if you're "riding the brake". That is, rather than having your foot firmly on the brake, rest it just barely enough to stop the car. Lifting my foot off the brake at this point would result in the car creeping forward immediately, even up a moderately steep hill, just as it would in a traditional automatic.

So if I wasn't deluding myself this morning, there's two lessons here: if you value your transmission's life span, keep your foot firmly on the brake when you're stopped at the lights. But if you want to be ready to take off in a hurry, try lifting your foot a little way off the brake a little while you're stopped. You can hear a quiet "click" as the DSG changes into gear, and also feel the clutch reach the friction point.

[jj77]

I noticed when driving to work today that the DSG would get into gear and keep the clutch at the ready if you're "riding the brake". That is, rather than having your foot firmly on the brake, rest it just barely enough to stop the car. Lifting my foot off the brake at this point would result in the car creeping forward immediately, even up a moderately steep hill, just as it would in a traditional automatic.

So if I wasn't deluding myself this morning, there's two lessons here: if you value your transmission's life span, keep your foot firmly on the brake when you're stopped at the lights. But if you want to be ready to take off in a hurry, try lifting your foot a little way off the brake a little while you're stopped. You can hear a quiet "click" as the DSG changes into gear, and also feel the clutch reach the friction point.

Thanks for the information, cameronp. My Golf is less than 300km year-old and I was thinking I will get used to the lag. But at the same I felt frustrated when I really have to quickly squeeze in the traffic at the stop sign or traffic lights knowing that I might not be able to successfully "shoot out" :p

I know little about inner working systems of cars... would you mind educating me how much damage I would do to the transmission if I do half-way brake regularly?

Many thanks in advance.
Cheers,
J

[Corey_R]

I know little about inner working systems of cars... would you mind educating me how much damage I would do to the transmission if I do half-way brake regularly?

You'd likely wear the clutch out quicker. There is also chance that if you do it too much in succession (in the same trip), that the DSG might put itself into "limp mode" (or whatever it's called) where it tries to protect the clutches if they're getting too warm etc.

[galtaforce]

I noticed when driving to work today that the DSG would get into gear and keep the clutch at the ready if you're "riding the brake". That is, rather than having your foot firmly on the brake, rest it just barely enough to stop the car. Lifting my foot off the brake at this point would result in the car creeping forward immediately, even up a moderately steep hill, just as it would in a traditional automatic.

Just on that point... my car always begins to move forwards when I come off the brake no matter how much pressure I have been using to keep it still. My understanding was that the clutches weren't supposed to engage until you pressed on the accelerator yet they seem to engage the moment the brake is off. Is this similar to other peoples' experiences?