Golf 118 TSI Engine Failures and Service Campaign 24S4

[gtimk5]

Give the dealer their due....
I am sure that all will be fixed up satisfactorily. These guys have all the factory equipment and training and arent backyard mechanics. Many brands have engine failures or whatever during warranty, I remember a 100 series Land Rover here had incorrect size main brgs fitted.
No good canning them, they can only repair as VW allows.

[skyva]

I am not trying to put any dealers down, and I agree that the dealer will in all likelihood get the car running well again.

My initial concern was that the OP indicated that the dealership explained that the wet compression test result was different to the dry test. In most cars this means rings. Given the OP, like most people, does not seem to have an extensive mechanical background, I was attempting to point out what the test results mean. Why do a wet and dry test if you ignore the result of the wet test and still go for the injector port which, in my view, would not have caused a higher reading during a wet test? However this does not mean the dealer is wrong, and it may be:
there are reasons why in this type of engine can give this result; or
given the cost of pulling the rings out, it makes sense to pull the head off (which they may have to do for the rings anyway) and have a quick look.

Regardless of car type or dealer behavior, getting the rings done in any car will take a fair while, so I merely wanted to give the OP a heads up.

My other point is that there is a gold-standard procedure when you have any work done anywhere. A good mechanic will put the old parts in the boxes they ordered. Being a dealer, you know they will order the genuine parts, so that is not a problem (some dodgy independent mechanics have been known to charge you for genuine parts and fit cheaper aftermarket parts). If you can see the old parts and they can explain what was done then you feel as if they are being up front.

I find I generally get a better result if I go in armed with some knowledge as to the nature of the problem, and likely timeline to fix. I hope the OP gets the best result so we don't have to can anyone.

[gregozedobe]

I agree that it is good to get all old (replaced) parts in the box the new parts came in, but in this case the owner isn't paying for the work, VWA is.

Given it is warranty work any old parts that have been replaced will almost certainly be going back to VWA for:

(a) proof the work was done,
(b) proof the work was actually needed, possibly
(c) analysis if it is a new problem that needs more investigation, and possibly
(d) despatch to VW germany if required for more investigation.

It should be possible for the owner to get a copy of the list detailing the work done and any parts replaced.

[gerhard]

As I said before, it's quite possible for the wet test to seal up an injector port, in the same way as it seals leaking rings. But I don't have detailed knowledge of how the ports are usually sealed in this particular engine. Presumably it's an o-ring similar to the 2.0 GTI engine.

The assertion that the vehicle owner should get a box of parts to prove something was done is ridiculous. This is a warranty repair, not a private hiring of a workshop to fix a vehicle in exchange for a fee. In that case, the old parts should be gladly proffered by the repairer - if not, go elsewhere lest you be fleeced.

I'd be willing to bet that if the problem is not the (relatively simple??) injector seal, they will replace the engine with a new long motor, and take the old one away for serious diagnosis along with whatever info they can dump out of the ECU logs. If, for example, there's a faulty batch of rings or a faulty piston, they will trace it back to the date/place of manufacture, to see if there is any chance of other cars being affected.

The OP will most certainly not get a complete engine to take home as evidence that VW replaced it, nor will any other parts be handed over. They quite rightly remain the property of VW because it's a warranty repair.

Sucks to be waiting though.

[skyva]

Forgive my ignorance in these matters, but here is how I look at it:
it is my view that the OP is not the "customer' in a warranty repair. It is VWA who are the party paying for the repair and therefore any work done is done by the dealer at the direction of VWA who pays the bills. As such the dealer, who I believe will try to do the right thing, will work under instruction from VWA and not from the OP. If I was the Op I would try to understand what was done explicitly, and the best way is to have the dealer show you the old parts while explaining what was done. Bear in mind I am an enthusiast and like to understand my car. If you don't give a rats, then by all means just nod politely at the simple explanation and drive away.

To Gerard, I must have missed something. Your only previous post said "In the olden days that would indicate the rings are shot. Not sure how the injector can be the problem."
In your next post, you said As I said before, it's quite possible for the wet test to seal up an injector port, in the same way as it seals leaking rings.
Sorry, I do not see those two statements as being compatible. I do however I agree with your first statement. My understanding of the test is that in a vertical engine, such as the tsi, the valves and injector are located at the top of the cylinder. The rings are at the bottom, half way down the piston. The small amount of oil added in a wet test runs, under gravity, to the bottom of the cylinder, around the piston, temporarily sealing leaks caused by one or more of:
scored piston
broken rings
scored bore.
This sealing causes the wet test result to be higher than the dry test. if they are the same, by all means it could be the injector port.
The injector under these conditions could not be sealed by the oil in a wet test unless the injector is located in the cylinder bore, not the head. I would be very surprised if this was the case.
While I agree that the parts will probably go back to VW, I would still want to see them. They are my parts in my car, and therefore they are mine to use as I please. As I try to be a reasonable chap, I would ask to speak to the mechanic, see the parts, go through a description of the problem and the solution that VWA authorized, and if the mechanic said he/she wants to send them back to the factory, I would almost always agree.
I also agree that should it be the rings then they will probably replace the motor with a new one, in some form. Of course no-one would expect the old one in a box, that is a little ridiculous, but it did give me a chuckle.


To the OP, if it is the rings please remember to keep all the documentation in this matter as it becomes an issue at resale time, particularly if the engine number doesn't match the original on the rego. If I was buying a second hand car and it had a new engine my first thought would be neglect or abuse. Obviously being able to show that the dealer fitted a new one under warranty would be a perfect excuse but it is not ideal for the resale value of the car. It might cost you nothing now, I just hope it costs you nothing in the long run.
Please let us know how it goes.

[gerhard]

^^

There's a difference between an injector and an injector port. You won't get compression leaking through an injector, but past the port seal, quite possibly.

When the engine is being turned over, the added oil might be introduced into a port leak, thus sealing it. It's a long shot, but seems to be what the dealer/VW is doing to possibly avoid replacing an engine that doesn't need replacing.

"They are my parts in my car, and therefore they are mine to use as I please."

Not true at all. If you want warranty to cover the parts, they effectively belong to VW and need to be serviced to VW's satisfaction. When the warranty is over, the parts are yours to use as you please, and you can insist on receiving the replaced parts in any repair. (Exchange engine/starter/alternator obviously not)

"the dealer fitted a new one under warranty would be a perfect excuse but it is not ideal for the resale value of the car" ???????? The OP would be likely to buy extended warranty after an experience like engine failure, so the car would have warranty until 5 or 6 years and 160,000k. By the time the car is traded the fact that it had a replacement engine 6 years before would not affect the resale one iota, and it wouldn't affect it at a 3 year trade-in either.

I agree that it is nice to be informed of what's happening, if you are an enthusiast. 98% of customers, however, don't know or care, as long as the car goes properly. Even enthusists on forums show stupidity at times when you read their posts about checking oil level in their cars... do a search and you'll see what I mean.

[cktsi]

it is my view that the OP is not the "customer' in a warranty repair. It is VWA who are the party paying for the repair and therefore any work done is done by the dealer at the direction of VWA who pays the bills. As such the dealer, who I believe will try to do the right thing, will work under instruction from VWA and not from the OP.

Hey everyone.. thanks for your concern. I want to step in here & say that I spoke to service centre guy yesterday who explained that there are rules & processes for warranty repairs. Because VW is paying for the repair, they have to work to the direction of VW (and I think they mean VW global).

Therefore they must follow the instructions of VW's global technical support if they are to qualify for warranty reimbursement.

Their technicians actually agreed with all of you that it looks like a piston ring issue, but they must still abide by the directions from VW despite their contrary view.


Having said that... as I was typing this, I just got a call from VW and they worked back till late last night to reassemble the car. The initial test was successful and this morning they are doing a road test to confirm everything is working OK. I get the car back at 2pm.

I will still have a chat with the dealer about giving me an extended warranty seeing as this has happened so early in the life of the vehicle.

[ox518]

Hey everyone.. thanks for your concern. I want to step in here & say that I spoke to service centre guy yesterday who explained that there are rules & processes for warranty repairs. Because VW is paying for the repair, they have to work to the direction of VW (and I think they mean VW global).

Therefore they must follow the instructions of VW's global technical support if they are to qualify for warranty reimbursement.

Their technicians actually agreed with all of you that it looks like a piston ring issue, but they must still abide by the directions from VW despite their contrary view.


Having said that... as I was typing this, I just got a call from VW and they worked back till late last night to reassemble the car. The initial test was successful and this morning they are doing a road test to confirm everything is working OK. I get the car back at 2pm.

I will still have a chat with the dealer about giving me an extended warranty seeing as this has happened so early in the life of the vehicle.

That's great, update us how you feel the car this afternoon.

[cktsi]

The car operates at least.

The supercharger now has a "squirelling noise" instead of the "whoosh" wastegate noise when I release the accelerator after moderate acceleration.

The problem with the ticking noise & unburnt fuel is alarmingly still there.

I phoned them back and the service guy said to bring the car in. They cannot tell from my descriptions what the issues might be.

The change in wastegate noise suggests the parts have changed from original or they have forgotten to put something back (or not put something back correctly).

They also didn't put the rear bench back properly & there's some sound deadening cloth poking out. No biggie... I could probably put it back myself, but if I break something, it's my responsibility & not theirs.

So I will have to take it back Monday morning for some rectification work.

I was hoping this was the end of the thread, but the unburnt fuel issue is what lead to this whole episode.


As for the compression graph, with the dry test, the readings were 120 bar in 2 cylinders, 118 in the 4th and the 3rd had 115. They said 115 was normal and within operating tolerance, but since it was significantly lower than the others they decided to change the injector.

During the wet test they were all around 210 bar except the 3rd cylinder at 207.

They showed me the print out but wouldn't let me keep it... so I'm hoping my memory is good & that someone can decipher what I've typed :p

[logger]

...all around 210 bar......
I'm hoping my memory is good...

Good job remembering it all, but I'd reckon those figures will be in PSI not BAR. Throwing 210bar (3,000psi !!) down the plug hole would not be too flash to be near unless things were all bolted up real tight. Someone with specific knowledge will decipher the rest.

[skyva]

Doesnt sound good. I know the mods are keen for us not to be canning the dealer but I would not behappy with the result. You are very patient to accept that the engine fault was returned not fixed and the car not properly put together aftwards. I would have not have been sympathetic, however you do need to keep the dealer onside to get the car fixed. Is there any other dealer you can take it to? Does anyone here know of great service center? I am not criticizing the dealer, as no doubt they are trying hard. However I would not accept that after working on your car they could not identify the fault and gave it back to you with problems, and when you call they still have no idea. It may be that another dealer has a more experienced mechanic who can help. After all, not every dealer has the same mechanics, and even doctors send you to specialists.
Unburnt fuel smell is a problem. I believe there are sensors in the exhaust that detect unburnt fuel to adjust the mixture from lean to rich. Maybe one of the sensors might be misreading, but it could be anything. Pinging is also bad. With all the tech involved in these engines, i would have a look at the sensors as the pinging could be pre-ignition, causing incomplete combustion resulting in unburnt fuel and a lack of power. These issues can be hard to track unless you start replacing sensors.

Can they connect up a data logger to the ecu and go for a drive? That would be my request. If you can get the car to repeat the fault while the data logger is attached then they have something to work with. I am guessing that they didn't see the fault themselves when they gave you the car back. I believe that only some dealerships have these data loggers, so they may need to get one in and send you home with it for a days drive or so. It can't hurt to ask, particularly if they are starting to say that they are stumped.
Is there a chance it could be a batch of dodgy fuel? We had some in Melbourne a few weeks back. I would try to fill up with the best fuel you can get, not from your usual source, ideally the best (ie most expensive) BP fuel you can find, I forget the brand name. If the car runs better after that then that may help diagnose the problem, otherwise you can only leave it to the dealer. Less pinging on high octane fuel would suggest pre-ignition.

At least Gerhard doesn't think there will be a loss of value in the car. You can always sell it to him if things don't work out to your satisfaction

[cktsi]

Thanks for the tips Skyva. When I first had the supercharger chirp diagnosed, the Barloworld service manager said that the Mascot workshop had a "gun" technician and to take the car there to verify the problem.

Unfortunately in that instance, it was confirmed they couldn't immediately fix the problem.

But yes, I do have another workshop I can take the car to. Even though FD VW don't like me talking to the technicians, slightly different culture at Mascot where I had direct access to the head technician.

Agree that it's not an acceptable result because it's a breakdown waiting to happen. It may be due to the unburnt fuel still clogging up the exhaust system, but I've got that petrol smell when the engine stops.

Your suggestions are good ones and I think Mascot can accomodate this request.

I think I still need to take it to Five Dock on Monday morning only to put the rear bench back properly. If I can replicate the problem, I'll leave the car there. If not, I'm driving to Mascot.

In the meantime, I will shift the gears myself rather than leave it to the DSG. I do think the DSG places too much strain on the engine by stubbornly keeping higher gears, where in a manual I would be gearing down. In my old Mark 5 2.0FSI I geared up around 2,100 rpm in each gear. From memory the DSG goes

1,900
1,800
1,650
1,650
1,600
1,600

I think 1,650 in 3rd is way too low ! I'd still be waiting for around 2,000 rpm. The higher gears could also do with waiting for another 200rpm before kicking higher.

[logger]

...may be due to the unburnt fuel still clogging up the exhaust system...

I very much doubt that. Run you car for a couple of minutes then grab your exhaust pipe. Temps in there are much too high for unburnt fuel to be pooling and in any case if it was, the smell would predominantly be at the tailpipe and not in the car.
You said they

..didn't put the rear bench back properly & there's some sound deadening cloth poking out...

AND

I've got that petrol smell when the engine stops...

Have you considered why they removed the rear bench? Likely reason to remove back seat could only be to access the fuel tank. My bet it that this is the source of you fuel smell and not the engine. Air the car out with windows open for a few hours. Might take a few days to go completely though. My Toyota Kluger had a fuel pump change about 6 months back which required rear seat removal for access. Took nearly a week for the smell to go.

So to take stock - Assuming you had no fuel smell, because it may just go in a day or two - What problem are you actually left with that makes you think engine failure is imminent?

[cktsi]

To clarify, the fuel smell is outside the car, not inside. However, it does sound like they've done something with the fuel pump.

When I say "breakdown waiting to happen", I refer to the fact that the symptom that lead to the breakdown is still there i.e. tick tick tick noise from the engine followed by a plume of unburnt fuel from the exhaust.

If the symptom is still there, I think the problem is still there... ergo: the car will probably breakdown again because the root cause is still present.

The service centre guy does want to diagnose the problem, but he's saying only if there's something to diagnose. Skyva's suggestion to use a logger is a good one - though they will probably want to keep the car than let me run off with their data logger :p

[logger]

Fair enough. I suppose if there is any consolation, the intermittent nature suggest there is not something mechanical broken in the guts of the engine which would show as a hard fault. I imagine they were investigating the fuel system looking for contamination & or blockages.