Tyre Pressure Monitoring

[Maverick]

Moderator Comment:
This thread was initially about an aftermarket tyre pressure monitoring system. The original post and information has been deleted. Discussion on the system and other systems is free to continue.
I have kept all the useful comments form the original thread.
Keep this one on topic. If someone disagrees with you take it on the chin and move on. You can debate it but back up your argument with facts and without being condescending, personal attacking or immature.
Maverick if you wish to put your information back in here please feel free to.
Thankyou.

[Steve]

That looks pretty nifty. What's it worth?

[gregozedobe]

Another $80 to strip and refit the tyres.

Any problems re-balancing the wheels after fitment ?

[Blitzen]

What good is a gauge for problems that occur when you're driving?

Is a gauge going to stop you before you damage a $500 tyre?

And does a gauge allow you to set warnings for over/under temperature/pressure?

I'm sure that people said the same thing about Stability Control, ABS, Traction Control, Keyless Entry, Immobilisers, Power Steering, Bi-Xenon headlamps, Halogen headlamps, EFI and so on but we wouldn't live without those technologies today and many are lifesavers.

Just like a decent TPMS is a lifesaver, a time saver and a money saver and will pay for itself in a short period.

Its just another gimmick. A TPMS won't stop the tyre from going flat. If you look after your car, you don't need it.

Is TPMS going to stop your tyre from going flat?? No, because you are going to have to pull the tyre off the rim to fix the hole or replace the tyre anyway.
You can just monitor it going flat, and say I'm glad I spent that money on a gimmick that dosn't do squat anyway.
On saving lives...What happens when the tyre goes flat straght away...? I dare say you won't be looking at the TPMS Screen while you are fighting to keep your car out of the trees, or would you be relying on your Traction Control, ABS and ESP to do that for you so you can take your eyes off the road to look at the TPMS screen.
TPMS is just the same as reverse sensors.

[gregozedobe]

Bugger, I find myself agreeing with Maverick again !

I believe TPMS aren't a waste of time if they save an expensive tyre or help prevent a crash. My logic goes as follows :

Most tyres go flat relatively slowly (I've only ever had one blow-out, but I've had dozens of punctures over the last 38 years), and even tyres that have a blow-out usually do so because they have been running for some time underpressure, which causes them to overheat, then they go BANG !

TPMS can tell you that one of your tyres is low on pressure when you need to know - while you are driving along AND BEFORE IT BECOMES DANGEROUS.

If you are driving along at highway speeds it can be difficult to detect a partially flat tyre, as the tyre is rotating so fast it tends to maintain its shape. By the time you can tell, the tyre is often already damaged by being driven on for many Kms. If you have been driving along in a staright line and then make a turn, if the "soft" tyre is on the outside you may find the car will suddenly lose traction and you could crash. Or the tyre could suddenly start to disintigrate.

Being only 6-8 psi low can significantly reduce the performance of a tyre, and pretty well no one can notice that by just looking at their tyres.

I check my tyre pressures more often than most, but if I pick up a nail, screw or pop-rivet (the most common cause of my punctures) it is quite possible my tyre pressure will be dangerously low by the time I check it next. I know I've come out to my car in the morning to see a flat tyre more than once (in cars without TPMS), so I obviously was driving on a tyre that had a leak last time I drove.

I'm not one to pay good money for gimmicks that I don't believe provide a useful function, but IMHO TPMS belongs with ABS, power steering and ESP as well worthwhile improvements in technology.

[Blitzen]

Using that logic you don't need an oil pressure warning light, nor a coolant warning light and the same with brake fluid because they will never have a leak or have their system fail.

Yep, thats the logic I'm using. If you look after your car, you will pick up on stuff. Its called Preventative Maintenance.
All these warning lights will only point out that a failure is about to happen/has happened.

Oil Pressure Light: Eg, your pump has failed. Time to strip your engine, replace the pump, inspect your bearings. Its going to cost you.

Brake Fluid Level Switch: Eg, your fluid is low because you havn't checked it or got the car serviced, or you have driven over something stupid that has pulled off a brake line, and you are going to have to get it fixed, replace all of your fluid, and re bleed the system.

Low Coolant Switch: Eg, Your fully sealed system isn't fully sealed any more. You either havn't opened your bonnet in the last week and seen an obvious leak, or checked your fluid lately.
You have a leaking hose clamp, a pin hole leak in a hose, a buggered water pump seal(you will see this leaking out the Tell Tail Hole), or worse, a buggered head gasket. These range from easy fixes to major repairs(but you would know this as you are omnipresent).

Coolant Temp Switch: Will only work if there is fluid in the system. See above.
If there is no fluid in the system, this will show as below hot(as the sensor is not imersed in fluid) until the engine cooks. Major rebuild follows.

No amout of links to TPMS sites will stop me from saying this is a gimmick that leads to laziness on the owners behalf. First hand experiance, not BS computer links, and "I read this one time" shows the laziness I see every day in the workshop that I work in, and have heard every excuse under the sun, because people arn't carrying out these checks (people in my line of work are ment to do these checks EVERY afternoon and evening at the completion of taskings),but luckily where I work, the operators are held accountable for their actions. If these checks are done, the problem is picked up before the warning light comes on in over 90% of the situations.

Gimmicks breed laziness, laziness breeds contempt, contempt costs money/lives.

[Blitzen]

Well, I watched one let go explosivly the other day when we were driving out to a job. Yes, very rare, but it went without warning. Luckily it wasn't on the steer. When the driver did his vehicle check in the morning, the tyre pressures were up to spec, as they had been the night before. No deflation over night, got out there, and 10km down the road, the tyre let go.
TPMS on a tyre explosion...38PSI...BANG!!...0PSI...

Woops, I think we may have a flat.

[gregozedobe]

Warning - long post (but you've read this far, so what have you got to lose ? )

Yep, thats the logic I'm using. If you look after your car, you will pick up on stuff. Its called Preventative Maintenance.
All these warning lights will only point out that a failure is about to happen/has happened.

No amout of links to TPMS sites will stop me from saying this is a gimmick that leads to laziness on the owners behalf. First hand experiance, not BS computer links, and "I read this one time" shows the laziness I see every day in the workshop that I work in, and have heard every excuse under the sun, because people arn't carrying out these checks (people in my line of work are ment to do these checks EVERY afternoon and evening at the completion of taskings),but luckily where I work, the operators are held accountable for their actions. If these checks are done, the problem is picked up before the warning light comes on in over 90% of the situations.

Gimmicks breed laziness, laziness breeds contempt, contempt costs money/lives.

Just because you don't like Mav's way of presenting info doesn't mean he is wrong (and yes, he gets up my nose way too often as well, but I prefer to refute with logic, it is more satisfying to me that way).

However, I'm still willing to continue the discussion, as if everyone just says "I'm right and you're wrong" then we as a community don't make much progress in terms of useful knowledge. I invite all and sundry to show me where my LOGIC is faulty.

I will mostly relate this to my direct experience (38 years of driving cars, bikes and 4WDs, including numerous punctures), things that are generally obvious and I'll try to avoid contentious issues (and no long interweb quotes, as that seems to upset/bore some people).

I don't believe that a decent TPMS is a gimmick at all, I see it as a potential life saver, injury preventer and money saver. Just to extend the argument to the ridiculous, I'll bet that back when pneumatic tyres first came out lots of people were rubbishing these new-fangled tyre pressure gauges as "just a gimmick", as it is easy to tell whether a tyre is the "right" pressure or not, just give it a kick.

1 I concede that ABS sensor driven TPMS's are not especially good, they aren't particularly sensitive and take too long to detect a slow leak. That said, they are better than nothing for lazy people (remember those threads we see from people who complain their engine oil level is low - because they never check it).

2 I think most people agree that the vast majority of low pressure tyres are relatively slow leaks (ie take 3 minutes or more to get to a dangerously low pressure).

3 Some of the decent aftermarket TPMS's (the ones with sensors and transmitters in each road wheel) are capable of :
- displaying tyre pressure for each wheel (to approx) 1 psi accuracy
- displaying interior tyre temperature for each wheel
- sounding an alarm if a preset pressure limit (low and high) is exceeded
- sounding an alarm if a preset temperature limit (high) is exceeded
- update every 3 seconds or so

4 Having a TPMS with the above capabilities is far superior to expecting someone (in the real world) to check tyre pressures (how often and with what accuracy ?) and/or notice that there is something "wrong" with a tyre while they drive along. I know I usually check my Transporter tyres every time I fill with diesel, but if it is raining I am tempted to give the check on the spare a miss, as I have to crawl underneath the rear of the van to do it - and I know I am way more diligent (OCD ?) than most drivers.

5 Using a more efficient tool/methodology to achieve an objective is not lazy, it is sensible and rational. Not using such a tool if it is available, affordable and practical could be seen as unethical at least. eg A fatal bus crash was investigated, the cause was found to have been puncture leading to a blow-out, so the coroner asked the obvious question : "Why didn't this bus have an effective TPMS ? This could have saved 19 lives".

6 Having a TPMS constantly checking pressures gives me the opportunity to discover a tyre problem before it has done any damage (either to the tyre or to my vehicle and/or occupants). AFAIK there is no other method of getting this information as you drive along (as has been mentioned by others , it is a different situation after "a failure .... has happened." ). And I can concentrate my attention where it belongs, driving the vehicle safely, knowing that the TPMS will warn me as soon as there is a problem with my tyres.

7 Blitzen, I would love to see your raw figures on punctures to back up your claim that "If these checks are done, the problem is picked up before the warning light comes on in over 90% of the situations ". I believe that a very, very high percentage of punctures happen while the vehicle is moving (the rest I would class as sabotage or vandalism). A pre-driving check can't pick up a puncture that hasn't happened yet, but a decent TPMS will pick up low pressure anytime it is switched on - before, during and after the journey.

8 A decent TPMS needn't be very expensive - I have found a UK ebay vendor who will sell me a decent TPMS for $AU172.00 (delivered to me in Canberra). It shouldn't cost me too much to get the sensors mounted, and if I was really cheap I could just plug the monitor into my cigarette lighter. Compared with the cost of approx $600+ for just one tyre on my Octy (225/40 x 18 XL Michelins) I regard that as pretty good value. It's a pity many manufacturersprefer the cheaper ABS sensor option - I'm sure as OEM a decent TPMS could be done for under $50.00 per car)

9 Since this discussion raied my awareness of the issues, I am going to put my money where my mouth is and put a decent TPMS on both my vehicles (even though the Octy has the std abs sensor TPMS already installed).

10 I don't insist that everyone else does the same as me - you are entitled to your own opinion (as am I), but I would be interested if you can find a serious flaw in my logic. And if I have managed to get a few people to have another think about how they can drive more safely, then that is a bonus

(sensible) Comments anyone ?

[gldgti]

i think you just owned that one greg. nicely put

I've gotta say having never driven a car with vintage young enough to have even thought about this kind of system, its a little perplexing to me as i feel that maybe we're becoming too reliant on gadgets to keep us safe - my dad uses a mk1 golf to do 30km's of rough road (and i mean rough, like most 4wd owners would complain about the rattles) a day (plus a longer sealed section) and he's never had any life threatning situations that were tyre induced.... myself, well i've had plenty of slow leaks in mytime (nails, scews etc) but always picked them up within 24 hours. i've had one explosive tyre failure - this was due to a large rut in a gravel road, and so wouldnt have been picked up by a TPMS.

on the other hand - i do a lot of km myself on sealed roads, and a daily F3 commute upon which i constantly witness cars with underinflated tyres. Tarago's with one back tyre clearly at about 12psi, and the other at 30.... numerous small cars with one or more bulging tyre... all of them so uneven. and, because of the nature of my commute, i see these guys day after day after day, and each time, sure enough, they still havnt pumped up their tyres! heck, i work with a guy that doenst check his tyres often enough, so i remind him to!

and, on that basis, i reckon something like these new fangled sensors would be money well spent - because even though it doesnt seem like i'd really benfit, i think if they made one with an annoying, audible alarm, and big red flashing light - it might save a few people who really are too clueless about their cars.

[Transporter]

I put TPMS on our 3 VW cars and don't regret it.

They are life saving devices indeed. The under inflated tyre coming off the rim will send you off the cliff.

I don't believe that anybody is checking tyres every time he/she gets in the car, several times per day.

[BarneyBoy]

...I don't insist that everyone else does the same as me - you are entitled to your own opinion (as am I). Comments anyone ?

Jeez Greg, very nice piece.
And nicely worded. We get far too much of the "This is the only way to do it, and all other ways are wrong and you're a cockhead if you don't do it my way..."

I'm with Transporter - TPMS is a lifesaving device.
It works far better than no TPMS at all.
Yes, there are better systems out there.
But no system can replace regular manual inspections (tread checks &c).

But well done, everyone - I thought this thread was going down the toilet...

[bazzle]

Just some info from my personal experience.

The TPMS on my Oz R32 works off the esp (extra sensory perception)

It throws a beep and then a tps light if one tyre drops about 2 psi down on the others.

Bazzle

[neil]

What I found interesting from this post and links from Maverick was that the
VW TPMS that we use in Australia does not comply with USA regulations as
it uses the ABS sensor which has limited monitoring capabilities compare to
the US which uses the in wheel based sensor which is the TPMS which is
the purpose of this tread.

Did a little more research on the USA system which is a standard feature on
all USA vehicles built and imported and it is believed to have saved thousands
of lives and millions of litres of fuel savings as well.

[NickZ]

Explains why I was so impressed with the tyre pressure system I had on my rental in the US - could tell me the PSI from any particular tyre on the vehicle.

Whilst I agree that sometimes these gimmicks breed laziness and results in a multitude of people saying 'why didnt my TPMS detect the 3 PSI decrease in my front left tyre' rather than rely on checking it themselves, just like ESP and ABS they do serve a purpose and if it saves one life then IMO it is worth it.

[Treza360]

Tyre Pressure Monitoring

Let's try this again. If you wish to discuss tyre pressure monitoring systems this is the place to do it.
I have put all the useful comments back in form the previous thread.
Let's try and keep this one on topic and without the usual rubbish. If someone disagrees with you take it on the chin and move on. You can debate it but back up your argument with facts and without being condescending, personal attacking or immature.