Considering doing an oil change?

[Russ59]

I was told by the service adviser at Solitaire not to change the oil & filter until the first scheduled service (15K).

This went against what I had done with all my previous new cars, where I had done approx 5 change by the time the 15K service was due.

I will now have the oil & filter changed on the 1.9 TDI ASAP (now done approx 6500), and hope there is no permanent infliction to the motor.

Maris

I had mine changed at 7,500 k's, as long as you have never run really low on oil, I doubt that not changing it sooner would be detrimental to the engines life.. When I said I wanted it changed at 7,500 k the VW service dept. said it would make little or no difference if it was changed then or at 15,000 k's. I told them it would make a difference to me knowing that it had been done and I will continue to have it changed at 7,500 k intervals as long as I own it at least.

Russ

[Transporter]

I had mine changed at 7,500 k's, as long as you have never run really low on oil, I doubt that not changing it sooner would be detrimental to the engines life.. When I said I wanted it changed at 7,500 k the VW service dept. said it would make little or no difference if it was changed then or at 15,000 k's. I told them it would make a difference to me knowing that it had been done and I will continue to have it changed at 7,500 k intervals as long as I own it at least.

Russ

Changing the oil at 1,000km will not hurt the engine at all or slow down the running in process.
The factory oil fill is the synthetic oil anyway.
IMO, if you're rubbing two metal surfaces against each other with the oil between them and that oil would be free of metal particles like softer tin, copper, led and brass particles, which could cushion or get embedded onto the surfaces than that could actually slow down the running in process then by changing the oil at 1,000km and flushing the cushioning particles away may achieve faster and better running in.
Theory behind the leaving dirty oil in the engine longer (not doing the first oil change at 1,000km) is that the carbon particles formulated in the oil from the fuel contamination after incomplete combustion will help to running in process since they act as abrasive.
IMO this will not work for everybody since the everybody’s driving conditions are different and that will affect the oil contaminants size. The frequent short trips are worst than long trips.
In the case of the diesel engine the contaminants will not go away when you drive long trips they stay in the oil, bond together and grow in size with the time, longer the time the bigger they get (the carbon is second hardest substance after the diamond) more damage they do in the engine especially to engine oil seals.
Now, let’s have a look and the ball and other kind of bearings. The carbon particles are not there and the bearings are run in with out contaminants presence perfectly well.

Everybody’s expectations are different and for some people it is OK if the engine last 200,000km and had couple or more repairs done during that time.
Some people expect absolutely no oil leaks or repairs within 250,000km, which I think that’s what I would expect - considering that the cars are made for more than 100 years now and all the advances in the materials and other technologies.

HONDA makes very good engines too and recommends just mineral oils in their engines and the first oil change at 1,000km I don’t see many Honda engines with the oil leak especially not within the first 200,000km.

[Bug_racer]

You should consider getting a magnetic sump plug

[Greg Roles]

Because I have the diesel I'm stuck with the specific oils that suit the PD engine, but if I had a normal petrol motor, from new, I'd pick it up, drive it straight home and dump the oil then and there. On my last car, a FPV GT, I drove it straight home and at 26kms the oil that came out was FULL of metal particles, scared the bejesus out of me and my mechanic bro actually. Then again it is a "ford"...

The TDI got driven home hard and whilst nowhere near as bad at the Ford, there was still enough metal in the sump to be a worry at 200kms.

The ONLY problem with changing the oil too much is the cost, unless the car is indeed filled with specific run in oil, but as I've yet to experience this, I take matters into my own hands. The Ford was run in with Penrites specific run in oil, which is designed to help bed the rings, and is to be dumped at 500kms. That car ran very well, was great on petrol, and put out a bit more on the dyno than it should. All the things that happen with a great piston seal.

If I had a GTI, well I'd do the same thing, but beware the run in oil is very thick, and I'd really let it warm up well first, and would be very wary in cold climates.

Penrite is a great choice! Wish they had a suitable DPF/ PD oil to let me bed in the TDI properly, the 507 is synthetic and not the best choice there.

[Russ59]

Changing the oil at 1,000km will not hurt the engine at all or slow down the running in process.
The factory oil fill is the synthetic oil anyway.
IMO, if you're rubbing two metal surfaces against each other with the oil between them and that oil would be free of metal particles like softer tin, copper, led and brass particles, which could cushion or get embedded onto the surfaces than that could actually slow down the running in process then by changing the oil at 1,000km and flushing the cushioning particles away may achieve faster and better running in.
Theory behind the leaving dirty oil in the engine longer (not doing the first oil change at 1,000km) is that the carbon particles formulated in the oil from the fuel contamination after incomplete combustion will help to running in process since they act as abrasive.
IMO this will not work for everybody since the everybody’s driving conditions are different and that will affect the oil contaminants size. The frequent short trips are worst than long trips.
In the case of the diesel engine the contaminants will not go away when you drive long trips they stay in the oil, bond together and grow in size with the time, longer the time the bigger they get (the carbon is second hardest substance after the diamond) more damage they do in the engine especially to engine oil seals.
Now, let’s have a look and the ball and other kind of bearings. The carbon particles are not there and the bearings are run in with out contaminants presence perfectly well.

Everybody’s expectations are different and for some people it is OK if the engine last 200,000km and had couple or more repairs done during that time.
Some people expect absolutely no oil leaks or repairs within 250,000km, which I think that’s what I would expect - considering that the cars are made for more than 100 years now and all the advances in the materials and other technologies.

HONDA makes very good engines too and recommends just mineral oils in their engines and the first oil change at 1,000km I don’t see many Honda engines with the oil leak especially not within the first 200,000km.

I didn't say that changing the oil at 1000 k's would hurt the engine, I was simply saying that as the oil being used in these engines is obviously high quality I couldn't see that any serious long term damage would be done to the engine if it was changed at least every 7,500 k's. I don't agree with the 15,000 k service intervals even though VW say that's all that's needed, personally 7,500 k is as long as I would allow my engine to go between oil change services even with top grade synthetic oil being run in it. I am aware that there would normally be some crap (metal filings) floating around inside a new engine during the running in process and obviously it could cause damage, but generally speaking most of it ends up lying at the bottom of the sump anyway and shouldn't cause too many dramas to the rest of the engine. I was advised when I took delivery of the GT TDI, that all VW cars are pretty much run in on dyno's before they reach the consumer and that the oil and filter was changed at the dealership before being handed over to the buyer. How much truth is in this I don't know, but I trust the salesman I dealt with as he has always been very honest and helpful with any enquiry I have made (even after the initial sale had long passed) One must also consider that the original thread starter has also had his car chipped and tuned, which while this sounds great and obviously improves the overall performance of the car, is it wise to do it to the vehicle at this early stage in the engines life (ie under 1000 k's) I guess that all depends on how it's driven, but I would expect it would have to put more strain on what would have already been a tight new engine and thus in this case changing the oil ASAP in the early stages of the running in process is probably a very good move


Russ

[benough]

I put oil on my car every week. About 55 litres of the stuff

[Transporter]

I didn't say that changing the oil at 1000 k's would hurt the engine, I was simply saying that as the oil being used in these engines is obviously high quality I couldn't see that any serious long term damage would be done to the engine if it was changed at least every 7,500 k's. I don't agree with the 15,000 k service intervals even though VW say that's all that's needed, personally 7,500 k is as long as I would allow my engine to go between oil change services even with top grade synthetic oil being run in it. I am aware that there would normally be some crap (metal filings) floating around inside a new engine during the running in process and obviously it could cause damage, but generally speaking most of it ends up lying at the bottom of the sump anyway and shouldn't cause too many dramas to the rest of the engine. I was advised when I took delivery of the GT TDI, that all VW cars are pretty much run in on dyno's before they reach the consumer and that the oil and filter was changed at the dealership before being handed over to the buyer. How much truth is in this I don't know, but I trust the salesman I dealt with as he has always been very honest and helpful with any enquiry I have made (even after the initial sale had long passed) One must also consider that the original thread starter has also had his car chipped and tuned, which while this sounds great and obviously improves the overall performance of the car, is it wise to do it to the vehicle at this early stage in the engines life (ie under 1000 k's) I guess that all depends on how it's driven, but I would expect it would have to put more strain on what would have already been a tight new engine and thus in this case changing the oil ASAP in the early stages of the running in process is probably a very good move


Russ

I agree with you Russ,
I also agree that the engine life won't be significantly shortened or great deal of damage done to it, if the first oil is left there for 7,500km - 15,000km.
I tried to explain why would someone want to change the oil earlier?
The benefit could be no oil leaks, even longer engine life and fewer mechanical faults. But you probably know that already.

Cheers.

[Transporter]

I put oil on my car every week. About 55 litres of the stuff

Good for you.

[Russ59]

I agree with you Russ,
I also agree that the engine life won't be significantly shortened or great deal of damage done to it, if the first oil is left there for 7,500km - 15,000km.
I tried to explain why would someone want to change the oil earlier?
The benefit could be no oil leaks, even longer engine life and fewer mechanical faults. But you probably know that already.

Cheers.

Cheers mate, it's also a pretty expensive exercise in one of these new cars compared to the old Fords and Holdens, a 5 litre container of GTX oil and a new filter was a hell of lot cheaper back then

Russ

[kryten2001]

Cheers mate, it's also a pretty expensive exercise in one of these new cars compared to the old Fords and Holdens, a 5 litre container of GTX oil and a new filter was a hell of lot cheaper back then

Russ

You're not wrong there. I remember the good old days when a 5 litre load of GTX2 was something like $30.. The Mobil cost me something like $120!

I actually don't mind doing it more often. The knowledge that clean oil is protecting the engine is worth the extra expense for me. In all likelyhood I'll probably change it myself every 2-3 thousand anyway (I do very few ks each year), or once every 3 months. I was a bit bummed out, as I wasn't able to change the filter. I'd dumped the oil and realised I didn't have a 36mm socket to take off the oil filter housing...

All the more reason for another early change next time I guess.

A lot would argue it's a waste of money, and not necessary - but I personally like to keep the engine running on new or near new oil. It's a heavily modified turbo car, that does mostly very short trips and gets driven very hard, including the occasional track day. I also really enjoy tinkering, and doing an oil change and a wax/polish is a great thing to do on a Sunday arvo.

Has me buggered why VW think they can get 15000 k's with a high powered turbo car out of this oil, when after 1000 it looked like it had come out of a tractor.

[Greg Roles]

Hey, be kind to tractors!

[Transporter]

You're not wrong there. I remember the good old days when a 5 litre load of GTX2 was something like $30.. The Mobil cost me something like $120!

I actually don't mind doing it more often. The knowledge that clean oil is protecting the engine is worth the extra expense for me. In all likelyhood I'll probably change it myself every 2-3 thousand anyway (I do very few ks each year), or once every 3 months. I was a bit bummed out, as I wasn't able to change the filter. I'd dumped the oil and realised I didn't have a 36mm socket to take off the oil filter housing...

All the more reason for another early change next time I guess.

A lot would argue it's a waste of money, and not necessary - but I personally like to keep the engine running on new or near new oil. It's a heavily modified turbo car, that does mostly very short trips and gets driven very hard, including the occasional track day. I also really enjoy tinkering, and doing an oil change and a wax/polish is a great thing to do on a Sunday arvo.

Has me buggered why VW think they can get 15000 k's with a high powered turbo car out of this oil, when after 1000 it looked like it had come out of a tractor.

The tip on that 36mm socket:
You can use adjustable wrench or what I did for my T5 where the oil filter is in location where you wouldn't get socket on the oil filter housing:
I took 50mm flat steel about 100mm long, draw on it 36mm hex, drill out the corners and as close to the side lines then use the file to make a nice 36mm spanner long enough for that tight space on R5 diesel engine in T5. Less than an hour of work and well worth of the effort.

P.S. I think on 2.0 TDI Golf it is actualy 32mm hex. You can also make 1/2" sq. hole at the end of that tool for the 1/2" dr. extension or ratchet.

[Russ59]

Hey, be kind to tractors!

There's nothing quite like a "Happy Tractor"



Russ

[Guest212]

Interesting on your findings of the oil.

I stuck to the VW recommended first change interval of 15,000km. In that time the oil did not go black. It looked quite healthy (although i did notice engine smoothness and quietness deteriorated after about 13,000km. I also burned less than a litre of oil in this time. Interestingly, I have none of the startup chatter described by many?


BTW: The oil filter WILL catch the particles big enough to cause long term damage to the motor. If you could feel particles in the oil, something is very wrong. I'd get a sample tested immediately to find out exactly what you were feeling.

[Transporter]

Interesting on your findings of the oil.

I stuck to the VW recommended first change interval of 15,000km. In that time the oil did not go black. It looked quite healthy (although i did notice engine smoothness and quietness deteriorated after about 13,000km. I also burned less than a litre of oil in this time. Interestingly, I have none of the startup chatter described by many?


BTW: The oil filter WILL catch the particles big enough to cause long term damage to the motor. If you could feel particles in the oil, something is very wrong. I'd get a sample tested immediately to find out exactly what you were feeling.

The oil filter will catch some of the particles that are big enough to cause long-term damage.
The full flow oil filter in your engine will catch particles somewhere from 20 to 30 microns when it is new and smaller ones when it gets closer to the end of its life. In VW’s case it is15 000 km. But while the filter is partially blocked and catching these smaller particles the bypass valve in the lube system will start opening and it will let unfiltered oil circulate through the oil galleries. When the oil filter is filled up with dirt particles and cannot filter any more, the oil bypass valve will be open 100% of the time and the engine will have no filtration at all. Even with new oil and a new oil filter, the oil is bypassing the filter element for a short time during warming up due to the increased viscosity of the cold oil and that time is longer when the filter is filling up with the dirt particles, so when the engine oil is dirty it spends more time bypassing the oil filter than clean engine oil.

If you would dismantle the engine which done some 150,000km plus and closely inspect the crankshaft and conrod bearings you would see the scratch marks on the crankshaft journals – what do you think caused them? Think about it: the scratch marks on the forged steel material that is rotating in bearings made from much softer materials..........

They were made by the carbon particles which were bigger than the thickness of the lubricating film isolating the two rotating parts from each other.

Bottom line is, if you change the oil more frequently or improve the oil filtration for example by installing bypass oil filter, the engine will last longer.