Engineer's certificate for remap ?

[brad]

Being a decidedly risk averse sort of person (hence I'm asking about these issues BEFORE I get a remap), I'm interested in what can be done to improve performance and still remain legal, not what "you can probably get away with at the moment".


I am genuinely interested in a remap for my 2.0 TFSI ( I Like the idea of more mid-range grunt plus a little more top end), but it is important to me to be 100% legal. For me, getting an engineer's certificate and doing emission tests 300Km from home would certainly add to the cost and complexity of getting a remap.

I thank everyone for remaining civil so far, and I hope this thread stays that way.

I think if your risk averse then you're best to leave it alone or you will worry all the time.

I was surprised at the number of people that got stuck into me when I had the windows on my car tinted darker than legal. Apparently it was worse than buggering the bursar. Never mind the fact that my previous car had a similar tint for the preceding 4 years without issue.

If you really want to improve performance then the first thing to do is a couple of advanced driving courses and some track days - sharpens the driving skills up real well & fun as well.

Then look at some suspension or brake improvements.

I mean, seriously, how often do you use full throttle & take full advantage of the full rev range? The increase in fuel consumption will still be way less than the cost of a remap.

[Logzy]

Hello Logzy, do you have any evidence to support this opinion ? ..........

IMO = In My Opinion ,hence no evidence just my opinion.

[Maverick]

I was surprised at the number of people that got stuck into me when I had the windows on my car tinted darker than legal. Apparently it was worse than buggering the bursar. Never mind the fact that my previous car had a similar tint for the preceding 4 years without issue.

The tint thing is pretty obvious however and if you have an accident and especially if it's at night either the police or your insurance company will pick that up. And if they can get away without paying they will.

As for engine remaps requiring an engineers certificate well IMO it's a load of bs, the states would be better off spending their time and energy towards getting unlicensed drivers and unregistered cars off the road as this would at least do something about the road toll and the cost to the drivers who pay insurance and registration.

[Greg Roles]

Ya bunch of nancy's!

If you're worried, then follow the rules and do what the man behind the desk says. Simple!

My 0.02c is that I can drive around pretty spritely in a Golf, and the cops hardly seem to care. In my prior FPV GT, I was being tailed, pulled over, and all manner of things "checked", a bit too regularily, for no real reason at all.

I think we're all pretty safe, and Greggo, I hate to say it, but I reckon you've little chance for being labelled as a possible hoon in a ...Skoda wagon!

[PirelliAC]

I was talking to a person in ACT registration about remapping an engine ECU (for more power and torque). His job is to deal with "technical" issues relating to roadworthiness and registration, so he's not an ignorant help desk person that doesn't know the regulations.

He was adamant that for any recently manufactured cars to remain legally registered, the owner would need to get an engineer's certificate stating that after the modification the car still complied with all relevant ADRs.

As well as an assessment of braking and handling capability, this would include passing the "IM240" emissions test (apparantly done with a warm engine to a set pattern on a dyno, and not available in Canberra).

He further said that a type or generic approval was not acceptable, and that the certification and testing had to be done on my individual vehicle after the modification.

Do other states have this requirement ? He said it was part of the "National Code Of Practice for Light Vehicle Construction and Modification (NCOP)" and that all states were (or should be) adopting this.

page 29 of VSB 14 on the following link gives more details http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roa...tin/index.aspx

He (and other state registration authorities) are quite aware that many people are remapping for more power, but at the moment detection and enforcement is not a high priority for them. He expects that if there are some high speed crashes of remapped cars it will suddenly become a political priority and they will clamp down on the practice.

Has anyone actually bothered to get an engineer's certificate for a remap ?

From reading the NCOP document and discussions with the gentleman I mentioned above, it seems to me that without a certificate a remapped car is technically unroadworthy, with all the unpleasant ramifications of that unhappy state (legality, insurance). I don't think I'm comfortable with being unroadworthy, even if the chance of being found out is minimal.

Or have I misinterpreted something significant somewhere ?

Sorry mate buts thats Horse ****!!! not true.

to modify your car to the point that you need engineers certification is extensive mods. A remmaped ECU does not require any certification. Otherwise any every man and his dog with a boost controller in his turbo, nissan, subaru or any other car would require it.

tell the guys to check his facts before he fills your ears with horse ****

[Transporter]

We have been involved in the legalities & the government departs for 7 years, and its not clear cut.

As an importer / distributor / retailer of the products, (fully insured for everything we import) I can tell you that the "code of practice" does not cover "remapping". Nor does it technically cover enlarging the turbocharger of an already turbocharged car.

Now state by state enforcement of the rules is a different issue. Pretty much all that can be enforced are modifications that can be visually & audibly detected:

Exhausts - Noise & emissions - probably # 1 - they have methods for testing this, and there are more rules & states linked together for enforcement of this.

Intakes - Exposed pods - obviously a big nono in each state.

Front mount intercoolers - Mostly big, obvious exposed ones.

We have had meetings with the traffic enforcement branch (Police) in QLD regarding these matters, and our national organisation AAAA (www.aaaa.com.au) has run through all the possibilities for us - you could fill 50 pages of a forum thread regarding these matters.

My advice:

Purchase all your products through a fully licensed, fully insured operator.

If importing your own products - check the laws first (ignorance is not an excuse).

How many people modify only ECU or install chip only? It is certainly not that hard to spot the car, that has enhanced power somehow.

I wouldn’t say that it is hard to check, hard to detect or expensive to put in practice.

It could be cheaper than keeping somebody alive, after he crippled himself in his WRX.

So, if there is enough serious accidents involving modified cars there could be some action and no legislation is needed ADR rules are strict enough, it would be

only the matter of reinforcing the law.

[nismo23]

This why you dont tell cops, insurance companies and dealerships these things... It goes back to the days where we used to swap rocky quadrajets for double pumpers and hide them under big chrome dishes so the prying eyes of the system couldnt see them....
It's just a little more high tech these days, thats all...

[Blitzen]

This why you dont tell cops, insurance companies and dealerships these things... It goes back to the days where we used to swap rocky quadrajets for double pumpers and hide them under big chrome dishes so the prying eyes of the system couldnt see them....
It's just a little more high tech these days, thats all...

Thats exactly it. And with alot of these tunes, they can be turned on and off, and are largely undetectable to scan tools...

If you are having doubts, don't do it.
If you want an engineers report, get it.
If you don't want to tell the insurance agency, don't do it.
If you can't drive a car with a bit of a power increase, stay off the road...
Do it, don't do it...Its your cash.

One of the leading tuners for VW in Australia has stated that it is a largely gray area, and one that the customers, Police, state transport agencies, insurance companies, installers can/will exploit given half the chance.

If you want to bring accidents stats into it, and what may have caused them, do it, but that brings in another variable that you will end up worrying about, and at the end of the day, the government will exploit this(can you say 'TAC'??? Imagine the s*#thouse ad campaign they would bring out!!), then the government will have us wrapped up in cotton wool with a layer of bubble wrap, and the cars will be detuned to 10KW.

[gregozedobe]

Sorry mate buts thats Horse ****!!! not true.

to modify your car to the point that you need engineers certification is extensive mods. A remmaped ECU does not require any certification. Otherwise any every man and his dog with a boost controller in his turbo, nissan, subaru or any other car would require it.

tell the guys to check his facts before he fills your ears with horse ****

OK Pirelli AC, I will continue be polite and refrain from swearing

What evidence can you offer to contradict what the ACT rego man told me, aside from your obviously strongly held belief (wish ?) that it should be the way you want it to be ?

I have talked to the person in my state who actually oversights registration of modified vehicles, AFAIK there isn't anyone who can over-ride his opinion on these matters. Just because you don't like it, didn't know about it, or can point to lots of people who are also doing the same or similar things doesn't make it legal (it's a bit like being booked for speeding, none of the above excuses will get you off).

Remember I am talking about what is legal (technically and actually), not what is illegal but hasn't been discovered and prosecuted (just because no one has bothered to do anything about it yet or it is too hard to discover).

Also, I am not saying that a lot of these mods (eg remaps, exhausts) would fail the relevant tests, simply that they are illegal because they haven't been tested and certified.

For your guidance I'll give you a few quotes from the Vehicle Standards Bulletins (NCOP) documentation, which seems to be the official line on this matter according to the appropriate registration authorities -

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle%5Fregulation/bulletin/

VSB 14 National Code of Practice for Light Vehicle Construction and Modification (NCOP). (NB any typos are mine, I couldn't cut and paste from the original document ).

In the Engine Modifications Code LA4 section.

Page 28
"The modified vehicle must continue to comply with all applicable ADRs, VSRs, VSBs, Acts and Regulations."

"Gaseous Emmissions: ADR 27, 30, 36, 37, 40, 70, 79
External Noise: ADR 28, 83"

Page 29
"SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS
Engine modifications such as changes to engine management systems.....have the capacity to to substantially increase a vehicle's power and performance and are generally considered on the same basis as a performance engine conversion with a safety upgrade required."

I think a remap may just be classed as "changes to engine mangament systems".

page 31
Checklist
"3.1 If power has increased by more than 20%, has the vehicle been upgraded to comply with specific requirements outlined above in Code LA4"

IIRC correctly most remap vendors claim more than a 20% increase in power for their turbo remaps.

From what I've read it isn't a grey area at all. It seems to me that remapping IS a modification covered by these NCOP requirements (ie emission testing and an engineers certificate. I'd be happy to be PROVEN wrong, but against the official literature I have seen to date any refuting evidence will need to be a pretty compelling.

FWIW the main concern of the guy from rego was that ALL cars comply with the relevant ADRs, modified or not.

I'm starting to feel like the new bloke in the Kingdom who has dared to point out that the emperor's new clothes don't actually cover up his ugly body

I know and understand that many people are happy to remap but not tell their registration authority (and usually their dealer), and often not their insurers as well, and that they are very unlikely to be found out. And that some weren't even aware that they might be doing something illegal.

However, I like to do things by the book, particularly if there is potentially a very high cost to being caught out. In doing my pre-purchase research for remapping I think I have discovered a serious problem, at least for a risk-averse person like me.

I agree with nismo23, if you are going to remap (or have done it already) and haven't gone the official testing and certification route, you should remove all publically available information that might suggest your car has been remapped.

[bazzle]

gregozedobe dont feel bad, I am in the auto industry where I meet a lot of people with modified vehicles. MOST people think its all crap and why worry until they get picked up, and they do, then they winge, for things like modded air cleaners, turbo and inlet system mods, suspensions, wheels and tyres.
I am always getting told I worry to much etc etc (putting it nicely)

Examples for the general boys out there are when when they have those roadside roadworthies (with mechanics and trained RTA, Vic roads etc inspectors present.
Thay DO know a wheel spacer, different inlet, BOV etc etc.
It then becomes your problem to get the Un roadworthy sticker removed and or an inspection performed.

No one can afford to prove their car still meets adr 69 etc etc etc other than a proper company (as above) who test, has insurance etc...

Bazzle

[Transporter]

Bazzle,

if your(or anybody’s) car would be involved in serious accident and was modified

with re-map or

chipped I don't think that you have any chance that authorities wouldn't find it out.

Usually they if it's serious it is on TV media step in and hoons law applied and you

could find yourself (or

anybody) in very hot waters. And the verdict is ............ guilty!

Nobody is talking here if they can afford testing or checking the cars on the road for

re-maps. Nobody is bullet proof or accident proof.

I always think that everybody is at least as smart as I am.

[Maverick]

if your(or anybody’s) car would be involved in serious accident and was modified

with re-map or

chipped I don't think that you have any chance that authorities wouldn't find it out.

If the car is flashed there is no physical sign of this. Depending on the chip but some will after the battery has been disconnected go back to stock. If the accident is serious the battery will be disconnected by the two truck driver to make the car safe.

IMO it's very very unlikely you would be found out unless you had heaps of mods to your car and/or had a handheld flashing device in the car.

[Guy_H]

How many people modify only ECU or install chip only? It is certainly not that hard to spot the car, that has enhanced power somehow.

I wouldn’t say that it is hard to check, hard to detect or expensive to put in practice.

It could be cheaper than keeping somebody alive, after he crippled himself in his WRX.

So, if there is enough serious accidents involving modified cars there could be some action and no legislation is needed ADR rules are strict enough, it would be

only the matter of reinforcing the law.

I have to disagree with you on that, all of the states in Australia and all of the resources of the departments of transport & combined police enforcement agencies can not monitor & enforce this to the letter of the law (or anywhere even close) - they have basically zero resources to identify a "remap" of an ECU, measure whp, measure boost.

Insurance companies have more drive, money, and motive to find out if a car has been modified (to the extent where it attributes to an accident), and they hire accident investigators (especially in the case of a large third party compensation claim that can cost them millions).

We have been engaged on 4 occasions by insurance companies to interrogate engine ECU's (and other systems in the car) over the past 6 years.

On each of these occasions, not once was a modification of the ECU investigated - or even questions (they were all high performance turbo Audi's) - in each case, the insurance company wanted to know which key was used to open / start the car & at what time.

This was due to theft, or fraud involving theft.

On one other occasion, we had to retrieve the crash data out of a vehicle (it was a completely stock vehicle) - I think in this case (we didn't have the full details) that the insurance company paid the damage claim, then handed over the data to the Police & had the driver charged with some offence (as the impact data was ~ 140kmph, and it happened in a built up area).

I think if you talk with your local departments on how they enforce these laws, you may get a better understanding of how it works. Once again, the "code of practice" leaves two giant loopholes - Modifying the stock ECU in a car, and modifying an already turbocharged vehicle with a larger turbo.

[Bug_racer]

This is an interesting topic thats been around as long as ADR rules itself . I dont really think we have that much to worry about as the cost to the consumer will be a major factor .

Does anyone remember about 10 years ago they were going to introduce a mandatory gas analysis on all cars in NSW for a pink slip ? Ever wondered what happened to that ??? Public opinion and from some groups outrage and it was scraped . I think they just raised the rego slightly for cars 10 years or more old (Im not sure but you can correct me if Im wrong) .

Sure you need an engineers certificate for a remap , but then again you'd need one for every modification done to the car - different tyres , wheels , baby seat even stereo pretty much anything that would alter the car from the way it was designed . The only parts you could fit would be available from the dealership only as they would be ADR approved . But reality is there is a major lack of mechanics already , finding more people to sit through 4 years on wages that you couldnt live off is going to be real hard . The general public will be mighty pissed when they have to go to an inspection station when they fit new tyres or a baby capsule !

And as for altering the maps in a car , well , what about parts wearing on a car and having the car fall out of spec with emmisions . Catalytic converters fail , and since most aftermarket ones wont pass ADR rules and emmissions for the car you'll need to buy a genuine one . Has anyone ever quoted a genuine cat ?

My response to this , dont worry about it . No one has ever had issues in the past with modding the engine on the car (engine swaps are a different story!) so I dont think it will change anytime soon !

[Guy_H]

OK Pirelli AC, I will continue be polite and refrain from swearing

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle%5Fregulation/bulletin/

VSB 14 National Code of Practice for Light Vehicle Construction and Modification (NCOP). (NB any typos are mine, I couldn't cut and paste from the original document ).

In the Engine Modifications Code LA4 section.

Page 28
"The modified vehicle must continue to comply with all applicable ADRs, VSRs, VSBs, Acts and Regulations."

"Gaseous Emmissions: ADR 27, 30, 36, 37, 40, 70, 79
External Noise: ADR 28, 83"

Page 29
"SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS
Engine modifications such as changes to engine management systems.....have the capacity to to substantially increase a vehicle's power and performance and are generally considered on the same basis as a performance engine conversion with a safety upgrade required."

I think a remap may just be classed as "changes to engine mangament systems".

page 31
Checklist
"3.1 If power has increased by more than 20%, has the vehicle been upgraded to comply with specific requirements outlined above in Code LA4"

IIRC correctly most remap vendors claim more than a 20% increase in power for their turbo remaps.

From what I've read it isn't a grey area at all. It seems to me that remapping IS a modification covered by these NCOP requirements (ie emission testing and an engineers certificate. I'd be happy to be PROVEN wrong, but against the official literature I have seen to date any refuting evidence will need to be a pretty compelling.

I have only addressed these couple of points, as all the other points you make are 100% correct:

There is no "Australian Standard" of measuring vehicle power that can be directly applied to the code - as everyone who has ever read a
"dyno thread" on a forum knows that it is impossible to test with a wheel dyno & get the same result on identical cars.

Another problem is the manufacturers figures:

Even our big two car builders - Ford & Holden measure there engine outputs in different standards, giving (depending on the derived formula) a result that can be up to 7% different (I think it averages about 3% on 2008 models). Holden use SAE figures for general advertising, Ford use DIN.

So if you measure a 300kw falcon & a 300kw HSV on the same day, same dyno - are you going to accuse the Holden of being chipped because it makes more than stated?

Sorry to throw Ford & Holden into the argument, but if our mainstream, big volume modified cars on the street can not have a standard output for a 100% factory standard car, how the hell will they ever have a measurement standard for a modified car ?