DSG & Torque

[PaulM]

Have done a search on here but can't locate the answer - what maximum torque can or is the DSG rated too / capable of?

[GoLfMan]

400ish NM i think

[vanDub]

I recall reading somewhere that it's the same as the 125Kw TDI output = 360NM

[PaulM]

Cheers - ok well that itself raises some interesting questions.

If the DSG is limited to the torque as quoted, then what advantage is there really of flashing an ecu?????

[vanDub]

If the DSG is limited to the torque as quoted, then what advantage is there really of flashing an ecu?????

Depends, if you have a 103Kw/320NM TDI and want 125Kw/360NM.....but in your case none.

[Mischa]

its rated to 350nm... but is it actually limited to that? how they would limit the torque is beyond my engineering knowledge

[PaulM]

Thanks Mischa - my point. There are 2 scenarios from what I can tell (and I'm just a noob):
- electroncially limited through software; or
- limited mechanically through some mechanism/limiter or due to maximum mechanical potential of the hardware.

For e.g. Revo have quoted me that if I have my ecu flashed I will get:

- increase in Kw from 125 - 160 (35Kw); and
- increase in torque from 350nm to 430nm (80nm).

Now is the GT Sport TDi DSG capable of that?

[LiFers]

                    Max Torque	
6 Speed Wet DSG	      350 Nm	              Transverse Engines
7 Speed Dry DSG	      250 Nm	              Transverse Engines
'New' 7 Speed DSG     550 Nm              Longitudinal Engines & Quattro Compatible

APR said the torque is limited by sensors in the DSG, should it reach maximum, the ECU reduces torque output from the engine.

[Maverick]

                    Max Torque	
6 Speed Wet DSG	      350 Nm	              Transverse Engines
7 Speed Dry DSG	      250 Nm	              Transverse Engines
'New' 7 Speed DSG     550 Nm              Longitudinal Engines & Quattro Compatible

APR said the torque is limited by sensors in the DSG, should it reach maximum, the ECU reduces torque output from the engine.

This is from another forum

"A little information about DSG and its ability to handle more power/torque etc and to put to bed the general assumption that it can't.

The O2E DSG box has exactly the same torque rating as the O2M box found in manual R32's, and that is 350Nm or
approx 258Lb/ft of torque. Internally at VW the gearboxes are known as O2E 350 and O2M 350 because of these ratings. (on Audi 3.2 TT’s they are know as MQ-350 and DQ-350 gearbox’s) same gearbox’s same torque ratings.
VW also produce an O2E 280 which has a 280Nm torque rating for lesser powered VW models.
The weight of the DSG Box is approx 95kg by the way of which the special gear oil weighs 5.3kgs!!, I know this because I have completed a competitive analysis and tested the gearbox then taken one apart to inspect it's internals. We had no problems with it while it was tested at the proving ground.

Anyway, that’s not to say that the O2E or O2M box's can't handle more torque as anybody knows, with the current
crop of conversions from HGP-Turbo, EIP, HPA, Rothe etc.

HGP also produce a Single Turbo conversion for the DSG with 400ps and 515nm of torque, so it kind of puts to bed he rumor
that the box is the "weak" point of the car.
The limiting factor of the box is not the gears or clutch packs but the programming of TCM (transmission control
module). The DSG TCM is programmed such that, if the input shaft sees more than a certain amount of torque (350 Nm)
it tells the ECU to dial down on the engine power. I assume this has been done by VW engineers to prolong the life
of the box and preserve clutch packs and brake bands, as I have heard that the clutch packs are designed to last the life of the car without out ever
needing to be changed... this statement comes from an article written in ATZ/MZT Engineering magazine (from Germany) in March 2004
by Dr. Frank Günter, Director of VW Program Management for BorgWarner Transmission Systems, who helped develop the
gearbox.

Ok, back on track, a certain tuning company built at VW’s request a few single turbo R32 DSG’s for VW to stress
test their DSG’s at Ehra-Lessien proving grounds and VW have logged at full throttle 5500rpm launches with no
reported issues. I believe this to be single turbo engines pushing out approx 400ps similar to HGP’s 400PS
conversion.
The TCM’s were modified to increase the standard launch control rpm’s from 3500 to 5500 to further enhance
acceleration times, and test the transmissions durability.
They also were able to reprogramme the oil pressure regulators of the clutch packs (hydraulic controls & pumps)to simulate higher clamping
forces and hence enable the clutch packs to compress further to enable them to handle more torque without slipping.
It should also be noted that the clutch packs are sprayed with oil to lubricate and to help dissipate heat
during certain driving conditions.

The probable reason why AMD and other tuning companies in the UK have limited torque increases on R32 and 3.2 TT's conversions is that have not yet been brave enough to dig into the gearbox internals and modify the TCM's to increase the oil pressure in the box and therefore increase it's torque rating.
So it's not that it can't be done, you just have to know what you're doing.
HPG Tuning in Germany can carry out this modification, and do for there 400Ps conversion, Wendland MotorenTecknik produce engines conversions for DSG equipped vehilces up to 310ps/360Nm torque.

I hope the above goes some way to halt the general assumption that O2E’s can’t handle more torque."

And this site has further information

I've also seen some information that it's good for close to 650nm (the six speed)

[Guy_H]

VW ran stock DSG transmissions in the new Scirocco race cars in the Nurburgring 24 hour recently & the cars reportedly ran ~500nm under race conditions & testing & all finished fine. (They used APR parts on the motors)

In typical German style, the generally have a minimum buffer of 30% on their ratings.

I know for a fact that there is a dozen DSG cars happily running 290kw & 450nm on DSG gearboxes for a long time now

[Oneofthegreats]

What there rated at & what they can take are two different thing's as Guy has mentioned.

I remember the first BMW Mini Cooper S' gearbox was rated at the amount of torque the engine produced. Rarely seen one stuff up due to breakage, even with a power upgrade.

Speaking of that, the factory fitted John Cooper Work's kit exceeded the gearboxes torque rating!

[GTom]

What there rated at & what they can take are two different thing's as Guy has mentioned.

I remember the first BMW Mini Cooper S' gearbox was rated at the amount of torque the engine produced. Rarely seen one stuff up due to breakage, even with a power upgrade.

Speaking of that, the factory fitted John Cooper Work's kit exceeded the gearboxes torque rating!

You're talking about the Factor of Safety... most of the components have some factor of safety associated with them, sure they can take 'x' amount more but once that 'x' is reached the component fails.....

So in the case of the DSG VW might say it's rated to 350Nm.... But can take around 450Nm (Thats a random number I just pulled out) until it fails. With the factor of safety applied they might give a nominal number say 370Nm (Again another random number I pulled out)

Can you imagine reaching the red-line when driving and your car just falling apart???? Would be interesting to watch though.

[vanDub]

Speaking of that, the factory fitted John Cooper Work's kit exceeded the gearboxes torque rating!

Thinks: my stock standard 125Kw TDI with its 360NM rating exceeds the DSG rating set by VW. So if the DSG ever breaks it's VW's fault. Wonder if they would accept liability??

Oh stop thinking, it pulls so hard that I am glad it has head rests to stop any whiplash and I haven't even tried S mode in anger yet.

[Maverick]

Thinks: my stock standard 125Kw TDI with its 360NM rating exceeds the DSG rating set by VW. So if the DSG ever breaks it's VW's fault. Wonder if they would accept liability??

Oh stop thinking, it pulls so hard that I am glad it has head rests to stop any whiplash and I haven't even tried S mode in anger yet.

The 125KW TDI puts out 350NM of torque and both of those figures are at the flywheel.

The DSG gearbox limits the amount of torque to protect itself and as has been posted earlier in the thread the DSG can easily handle a lot more then that.

[gerhard]

VW ran stock DSG transmissions in the new Scirocco race cars in the Nurburgring 24 hour recently & the cars reportedly ran ~500nm under race conditions & testing & all finished fine. (They used APR parts on the motors)

In typical German style, the generally have a minimum buffer of 30% on their ratings.

I know for a fact that there is a dozen DSG cars happily running 290kw & 450nm on DSG gearboxes for a long time now

The 125KW TDI puts out 350NM of torque and both of those figures are at the flywheel.

The DSG gearbox limits the amount of torque to protect itself and as has been posted earlier in the thread the DSG can easily handle a lot more then that.

I'm curious now - APR and REVO sell flashes that up the GTI torque to 400NM or so. Others limit the increase to 350NM.

If an APR or REVO goes in, does the 400 figure become marketing hype when the DSG reduces torque to a max of 350 internally?