Which Clutch/Flywheel Kit for a Stage 1 chipped GTI?

[Sirocco20348]

Hi Guys,

I am researching possible clutch/flywheel kits for a stage 1 chipped GTI. This thread has probably been done to death, but I have not found an all inclusive thread with information explaining the technical side to clutch/flywheels.

Dual Mass Flywheel vs Single Mass Flywheel:

The 1.8T GTI in stock form uses a Dual Mass Flywheel weighing approx 29lbs (13kg).

For information about 'What is a Dual Mass flywheel?', click on this link. It is a very easy to read and informative PDF produced by clutch manufacturer LUK.
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Dual Mass Flywheel Cliffs Notes

Benefits
- Comfort
- Very quiet in operation. Torsional vibrations passed down the drive train, and gear rattles are absorbed by the springs in the DMF.
- Saves fuel (I assume from the heavy weight of the DMF, helps with highway cruising)

Drawbacks
- Expensive to replace.
- Heavy
- The spring dampeners inside the DMF are optimised for the power and torque of the car. This starts to become problematic as people start to modify their cars.

This is quoted from the linked document above: (page 21 - Section 4.3 - Chip tuning)

Usually the torsion damper system of a Dual-Mass Flywheel, just like the remaining parts of the drive train, is designed
for the engine for which it is intended. In many cases the safety reserve of the Dual-Mass Flywheel is used up or
exceeded by a torque increase, sometimes by more than 30%. As a consequence, the arc springs can already be completely
compressed during normal driving, which deteriorates noise insulation and can cause the vehicle to jolt.

This jolt is maybe what people experience when off throttle after a quick burst of acceleration.. feels like the engine is rocking? Just thinking out loud here.

As this is the case at half of the firing frequency, very high loads are quickly produced and transferred not only to the Dual-Mass Flywheel, but also to the transmission, which could result in damage to drive shafts and the differential. Damage can range from increased wear to a catastrophic failure resulting in a huge repair bill. The operating point of the Dual-Mass Flywheel is shifted towards its security reserve by the increase in the power of the engine. During driving, the Dual-Mass Flywheel is permanently overloaded by the higher engine torques. This causes the damper springs in the Dual-Mass Flywheel to operate “fully loaded” more often than they are designed to and can destroy the Dual-Mass Flywheel!

This is the main reason why people swap over to a SMF, as this completely eliminates the damper springs and is just a solid block of metal.

It has been stated on other forums that if a person is not going to exceed stock power by 15% they should stay with a DMF. I am not sure where they have got this figure from. However, a Stage 1 Chip tune is roughly 20-25% increase in power and maybe exceeds the tolerances of the stock DMF.

Single Mass Flywheel Cliffs Notes

A popular option is the install of the G60 Flywheel which weighs approx 22lbs (10kg). (3kg less than the stock DMF)

Benefits
- Simple in design
- Low cost (Stage 1 kits)
- Reliability with modified cars.
- More responsive acceleration due to decreased weight.

Drawbacks
- Gear chatter when in idle and the gear lever depressed. Non issue.

As mentioned, the SMF are available in lighter weights. Car manufacturers make the stock flywheel very heavy. A heavier flywheel makes the engine very smooth and enables it to retain energy at part throttle cruise and up long grades for better fuel economy. A lightened flywheel allows the engine rev up very quickly and operate easier due to the reduced weight spinning around on the back of the crank. It seems to be debatable whether an excessively lightened flywheel is a worthwhile option on a road car, even if it sees the odd track day twice a year.

Clutch Selection

A popular choice is the Sachs VR6 clutch as it is bigger in size compared to OEM. (288mm instead of the stock 220mm)

Good information on this page: Clutch FAQ for VW and Audi TDI engines | VW TDI forum, Audi, Porsche, and Chevy Cruze diesel forum

Clutch Material (Quoted from above link)

Most street disks are made with organic faced material. This is similar to brake pad material. It has the smoothest engagement but can slip if it overheats. If you are shifting under high rpm and heavy load, this can overheat an organic disk, resulting in a burning smell and a lower coefficient of friction. Typical stop-go driving is not enough to overheat this disk but excessive slipping can. Full throttle drag races with heavy clutch slipping can glaze this type of disk. The nice thing about organic disks is that if it starts to smoke, let it cool and drive normally. It may regain most of it's clamping force. It is probably the best choice for a smooth, long life, lightweight clutch on a daily driver.

Carbon clutches are normally used for racing applications where it is expected to slip a lot. They can withstand up to 2000 degree temps without destruction. Engagement changes a lot depending on temperature and they normally slip a bit under normal street use. This is a clutch that needs to slip and heat up before reaching maximum holding force. It's actually a clutch which you can slip without damaging the clutch material. Again, since "drivability" is a very subjective term, these suggestions are conservative. I would not use this on a street car.

[Sirocco20348]

After a bit of investigation, I feel confident in deciding that the G60 flywheel and VR6 clutch combo is the best choice for a Stage 1 tuned 1.8t Golf to retain maximum possible comfort compared to a DMF and oem clutch.

Here are links to the ebay seller I mentioned in the original thread...

SACHS clutch
VW Golf Mkiv 1 8 Turbo G60 Flywheel Sachs VR6 Clutch | eBay

LUK clutch
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VW-VOLKSW...item3cd3d9a3f1

Lightened Flywheel and Carbon Kevlar clutch
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VW-GOLF-1...item3a76256c87

They are approx $460-$480 delivered. If anyone knows where to get it cheaper locally, please let me know.

[Umai Naa!!]

That's dirt cheap.

Last time I priced up an LUK OEM-spec MK4 GTI clutch, it was about double that, and didn't include new bolts, etc.

[dubster99]

After a bit of investigation, I feel confident in deciding that the G60 flywheel and VR6 clutch combo is the best choice for a Stage 1 tuned 1.8t Golf to retain maximum possible comfort compared to a DMF and oem clutch.

Here is a link to the ebay seller I mentioned in the original thread...
VW Golf Mkiv 1 8 Turbo G60 Flywheel Sachs VR6 Clutch | eBay

It is approx $460 delivered. If anyone knows where to get it cheaper locally, please let me know.

Says its for a dual mass clutch? Is that standard on mkiv gti? Whats better, dual or.single?

[Sirocco20348]

Says its for a dual mass clutch? Is that standard on mkiv gti? Whats better, dual or.single?

LoL read my massive original post

[dylan8]

Keep the info and feedback coming Sirocco20348, this will be one to sticky I think.
My clutch is slowly getting to its life end (more from high km and age rather then abuse according to my mechanics ) and was going to investigate if its worth upgrading or sticking to something simple on a stock and slow engine so was good to read the above

[h100vw]

I am not convinced there's a decline in cruising fuel consumption. When I first got my Polo it was much worse with the K03s, DMF and AMD tune than it was with the FT, lwfw/stage 1 and CC Phase 2 (before I went to the big MAF and injectors). I never saw it drop below 6.5 with AMD and could get under 6 with the Phase 2 doing a steady 100.

I wouldn't bother with exotic clutch plates unless you plan a big turbo upgrade, even then it's more about the clamping of the cover. The Stage 1 with a standard G60 flywheel would be a good compromise.

They do make a bit of noise at idle but Jesus it's a modification FFS

Gavin

[Sirocco20348]

I am not convinced there's a decline in cruising fuel consumption. When I first got my Polo it was much worse with the K03s, DMF and AMD tune than it was with the FT, lwfw/stage 1 and CC Phase 2 (before I went to the big MAF and injectors). I never saw it drop below 6.5 with AMD and could get under 6 with the Phase 2 doing a steady 100.

How lightened was your flywheel Gavin? Did you notice any difference with driving up hills, was it revving more to maintain speed?

[Martin]

I'm very sceptical about the need/benefit and end result of changing to a single mass flywheel

I'm running a Stage 2 Skoda Octavia - has a late model Golf 2.0L Turbo engine (CCZA)
In stock form it had 147kw, Stage 2 APR is 200~210kw, 30% more than stock
I'm using the stock flywheel and clutch and have no issues what so ever
I've tracked the car three times and regularly use the car to redline
(176kmph at the end of the Wakefield straight - not bad!)
I must admit, having a DSG gearbox, it may not have a heavy DMF

I also have a Nissan 350Z which has a heavy DMF
Many people replace it with a SMF only to be very disappointed
The noise is not pleasant and it's harder to get the car rolling, more revs and clutch slipping needed
Guys who also put a sticky clutch plate in are even worse off, there is not enough slip control,
they have to rev and dump the clutch and chirp the wheels off the line, at every intersection
That behaviour and the noise of an aftermarket cat back exhaust brings unwanted attention from the boys in blue

[aprr32]

In my caddy (1980) with the 1.8T I have been using a light(2.5 kg's machined of the back) G60/T4 4cyl flywheel and T4 5cyl clutch for nearly ten years without any problems or geartrain clatter.I run 22psi all day and it still feels like a new clutch, but in my 8P S3 with the Sachs smf and heavy duty clutch there was a lot of gearbox noise.Changing the gear oil to redline reduced it to liveable level.

[Sirocco20348]

I'm very sceptical about the need/benefit and end result of changing to a single mass flywheel

I'm running a Stage 2 Skoda Octavia - has a late model Golf 2.0L Turbo engine (CCZA)
In stock form it had 147kw, Stage 2 APR is 200~210kw, 30% more than stock
I'm using the stock flywheel and clutch and have no issues what so ever
I've tracked the car three times and regularly use the car to redline
(176kmph at the end of the Wakefield straight - not bad!)
I must admit, having a DSG gearbox, it may not have a heavy DMF

This is the information we don't have... what exactly is the Stock DMF rated too. Some guy on vwvortex just through out the notion of 15% more, but he didn't back this up with anything what so ever.

I too are running the stock DMF, and have been to Wakefield... once.. but still its extreme conditions for the car. I haven't noticed anything wrong with it either.

Has anyone heard of DMF failures from too much power?

In my caddy (1980) with the 1.8T I have been using a light(2.5 kg's machined of the back) G60/T4 4cyl flywheel and T4 5cyl clutch for nearly ten years without any problems or geartrain clatter.I run 22psi all day and it still feels like a new clutch.....

This is great to know!

[h100vw]

When you come to replace the DMF that's where the issue comes up. The DMF even aftermarket, costs a small fortune compared to a SMF conversion. I could get the FW alone for a mates A4 and it was $850 trade. You can get 2 SMF kits nearly and still be ahead.

There's a increase in diameter which has to be a good thing.

There's no extra revving up to get moving, the car pulls just the same up hills. The revs are the same as that is down to gear ratios.

The pedal feel is light. The slight vibe through the dash is the only give away and I have the race insert in my Polo.

I can't think of a downside.

Troy still has a DMF in his Polo with FT but it could last another 5 minutes. Until it quits we won't know. The std clutch in my Polo couldn't handle the K03s and Phase 2 tune. So you can't draw a line on how good they are.

I wouldn't put a DMF in any of my cars if I had one wear out.

[Martin]

...what exactly is the Stock DMF rated too.
Some guy on vwvortex just through out the notion of 15% more, but he didn't back this up with anything what so ever.

The flywheel is not rated for power/torque - and no difference between single/dual mass

The clutch pressure plate and friction plate determine what engine torque can be handled without slip

[Sirocco20348]

RE: Which Clutch/Flywheel Kit for a Stage 1 chipped GTI?

But the construction of SMF and DMF are completely different? The DMF has spring dampeners between the 2 flywheel plates that are rated to the torque of the car.
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