problems under high boost

[bujna]

Hi Guys,

I'm hoping someone will be able to point me in the right direction here. Around 2 months ago i had the ignition sensor fail, and the car was undrivable. It was running rough from the moment the car started.

I ordered a new ignition sensor, it arrived a couple of weeks later, i installed it, and the car was fine. A few weeks later i started finding that the car was stuttering when the car hit around 15 - 16 psi of boost in 3rd, 4th, and 5th gear. I replaced the spark plugs (another set of bkr7e's), and this problem dissapeared for another few weeks until the last few days...

The only other symptom i've been having recently is that the car occasionally has trouble starting again when it's been run for only about 5 minutes to the shops. The starter ticks over fine, but the engine doesn't for up to 10 seconds at it's worst. I've checked the battery, and it's been at 12.67V before starting and gets up to over 14V when running, and drops back to ~12.8V when the car is switched off again... Apart from that i can still hear the fuel pump priming up when i first open the drivers door...

Checking with vag com, the engine isn't producing any fault codes.

I logged the following data tonight. The knock values go positive when the stuttering occurs at high boost. I've only got the shareware version of vag com 409.1. If there are other blocks i should be logging that require the full version, then i might buy a license this week....

Is the new ignition module likely to be at fault?

Dan

Wednesday 17 February 2010 20:21:32
06A 906 018 CH 1.8L R4/5VT MOTR HS D02

Group A: '014 Group B: '015 Group C: Not Running
RPM Time Knock Reg. Knock Reg. RPM Time Knock Reg. Knock Reg.
TIME TIME TIME
Marker STAMP /min ms ° ° STAMP /min ms ° ° STAMP
150.34 1360 1.35 0 0 150.72 1320 1.25 0 0
151.09 1560 1.05 0 0 151.47 2200 0.65 0 0
151.86 2040 1 0 0 152.24 2000 1.1 0 0
152.63 1960 1.8 0 0 153.01 2040 2.95 0 0
153.41 2040 2.5 0 0 153.78 2080 2.55 0 0
154.18 2160 3.05 0 0 154.56 2240 3.4 0 0
154.95 2280 2.6 0 0 155.33 2280 1.55 0 0
155.7 2280 1.45 0 0 156.08 2280 1.35 0 0
156.45 2200 1.3 0 0 156.83 2160 0.9 0 0
157.22 2040 0.8 0 0 157.6 2000 0.85 0 0
158 1920 0.95 0 0 158.37 1840 1.05 0 0
158.75 1760 1.05 0 0 159.15 1800 1.05 0 0
159.54 1760 1.05 0 0 159.92 1800 1.2 0 0
160.29 1800 1.45 0 0 160.69 1840 2.8 0 0
161.12 1960 4.2 0 0 161.49 2080 4.85 0 0
161.87 2240 5.55 0 0 162.26 2480 6.75 0 0
162.64 2680 7.15 0 2.2 163.02 2920 7.1 2.2 0
163.41 3160 7.1 0 1.5 163.79 3440 7.3 2.2 0
164.18 3440 4.55 0 1.5 164.58 3120 1.25 0 0
164.98 2560 1.3 0 0 165.36 2440 3.95 0 0
165.73 2520 5.4 0 0 166.11 2600 6.7 0 0
166.5 2720 8.15 2.2 2.2 166.88 2840 10.4 0 2.2
167.26 3000 10.45 2.2 2.2 167.63 3200 9.7 2.2 2.2
168.02 3280 9.35 2.2 2.2 168.38 3360 9.35 6.7 2.2
168.77 3600 9.2 3.7 3.7 169.15 3760 9.05 6 4.5
169.54 3560 2.7 3.7 5.2 169.9 3080 1.1 0 0
170.29 2520 0.95 0 0 170.67 2920 0.8 0 0
171.04 2880 0.9 0 0 171.44 2840 0.75 0 0
171.82 2800 0.75 0 0 172.21 2800 0.7 0 0
172.58 2760 0.7 0 0 172.96 2720 0.7 0 0
173.38 2640 0.75 0 0 173.74 2560 0.75 0 0

[h100vw]

Those timing pusls are not massive still. I'd like to see less than 5's normally. What gap have you set the plugs at? I had a BKR7E fail on me. Pulled the set out and fitted platinums cos I had them on the shelf.

Could be the gap has opened up since you fitted the plugs and they are now struggling to spark under load.

Try tightening the gap, I think it's 28 thou you want. I am sure you'll find it with google somewhere on Vortex.

I had a miss on holein1s Golf when I flashed that. Not huge but we could both feel it holding back. I was convinced it wasn't the software and pulled out the easiest spark plug, I could measure the gap with a ruler not feeler gauges. New plugs fixed it.


Gavin

[Jmac]

Ill just say dont rely on fault codes as such mate, there can still be faults but a sensor may be within a parameter. There is parameters set with a fair bit of scope, thats why most MAF faults never throw a code. The ECU is dumb mate rememeber that.There Is has a huge window before it throws a code. You have to have someone who knows how to read the logs mate. Im coming down at easter to my old home town of Newwie and ill have my Laptop on me, if you are still having dramas then ill have a read mate
Cheerd
Jmac

[BI65ND]

Hey, sorry to thread jack slightly, but are the BKR7E's what everyone's using in their golfs?? I just got the ones NGK recommend which were the BKUR6ET's. I know the 7's are a colder plug than the 6's and the ET's mean that there is an extra electrode.

Only reason I ask is I feel like the car may have a slight miss at high boost, notice it on the highway when trying to accelerate, just at times feels like Im hitting a brick wall and won't accelerate, even though boost is at max and I've dropped back a gear.

[h100vw]

The BKR7E thing started in the States on big turbo conversions, they are a fraction of the price of platinum plugs but you need to replace them more often as consequence of that.

The extra electrodes just extend the service life. To be truthful the BKR6E is probably better suited to std and stage 1 chipped engines than the 7.

Could be a heap of things causing the holding back. Is the car chipped, what mods does it have?

Gavin

[McDub]

The only other symptom i've been having recently is that the car occasionally has trouble starting again when it's been run for only about 5 minutes to the shops. The starter ticks over fine, but the engine doesn't for up to 10 seconds at it's worst. I've checked the battery, and it's been at 12.67V before starting and gets up to over 14V when running, and drops back to ~12.8V when the car is switched off again... Apart from that i can still hear the fuel pump priming up when i first open the drivers door...

sound like what mine has done a few times, infact i had NRMA come out and all he did was turn the key for about 30 seconds (no idea how the battery could handle it), and it started... mind you after several warnings from the dash saying STOP, oil pressure etc...
anyway i've been told the problem could be the oil pump...

and as to your other problem, i've noticed a simillar shuddering thing with my power deliver, though it only minor and not very noticeable. more noticeable is the drop in power, anything over 4000rpm and the engine starts to drown in its own fuel... simillar to what BI65ND described just before.
and interestingly enough, the guys who wrote the flash for my car say that timing pull (i have no idea what it is...) needs to be looked at, among other things...

[bujna]

Those timing pusls are not massive still. I'd like to see less than 5's normally. What gap have you set the plugs at? I had a BKR7E fail on me. Pulled the set out and fitted platinums cos I had them on the shelf.

Could be the gap has opened up since you fitted the plugs and they are now struggling to spark under load.

Try tightening the gap, I think it's 28 thou you want. I am sure you'll find it with google somewhere on Vortex.

I had a miss on holein1s Golf when I flashed that. Not huge but we could both feel it holding back. I was convinced it wasn't the software and pulled out the easiest spark plug, I could measure the gap with a ruler not feeler gauges. New plugs fixed it.


Gavin

I did check the gaps before i installed them and they were at 28. They seem to be at that gap by default. I'll pull them out on the weekend though and see if the gap has changed. If i don't get any luck there, then i'll change to the bkr6e's you mentioned and see how they go.

Thanks Gav! Once again

[h100vw]

Timing pull is the ECU backing off the timing in response to some external influence. Intake air temp would be a common one, this could be heat soak in the intercooler.

Cooler air allows the ECU to advance the timing and produce more power, hot air has the opposite effect.

How do you know it's drowning in fuel?? Can you see black smoke in the exhaust or something.

Has the water temp sensor been replaced recently, I have seen your probs on the forum but can't remember all the details.

Gavin

[bujna]

Ill just say dont rely on fault codes as such mate, there can still be faults but a sensor may be within a parameter. There is parameters set with a fair bit of scope, thats why most MAF faults never throw a code. The ECU is dumb mate rememeber that.There Is has a huge window before it throws a code. You have to have someone who knows how to read the logs mate. Im coming down at easter to my old home town of Newwie and ill have my Laptop on me, if you are still having dramas then ill have a read mate
Cheerd
Jmac

Ahh that's right. You mentioned that you used to live in these parts. I'm going to be getting back from a trip to NZ on the easter monday. If you're still around after that, and i've still got issues, i'll be very keen to take you up on that offer

[h100vw]

No probs. If those plugs have done a few thousand Ks, they will have opened up. Set them to 26 thou and try again.

You might find that you can see one of the 4 is different.

When mine was playing up. I took the plugs out and my wife could pick the odd one out. The nose of the plug was a very different colour.

Gavin

[BI65ND]

The BKR7E thing started in the States on big turbo conversions, they are a fraction of the price of platinum plugs but you need to replace them more often as consequence of that.

The extra electrodes just extend the service life. To be truthful the BKR6E is probably better suited to std and stage 1 chipped engines than the 7.

Could be a heap of things causing the holding back. Is the car chipped, what mods does it have?

Gavin

Na not chipped, pretty much standard. Got an AEM cold air intake kit and a Baileys DV, but thats about it. Nothing that should be causing it.
Apparently mine blows a lot of black smoke too when it occurs, from ppl who have been driving behind me.

[McDub]

Timing pull is the ECU backing off the timing in response to some external influence. Intake air temp would be a common one, this could be heat soak in the intercooler.

Cooler air allows the ECU to advance the timing and produce more power, hot air has the opposite effect.

How do you know it's drowning in fuel?? Can you see black smoke in the exhaust or something.

Has the water temp sensor been replaced recently, I have seen your probs on the forum but can't remember all the details.

Gavin

thanks for the answer, i googled it for ages and couldn't find an answer!
i know one of the temp sensors was replaced, not sure which one, i get the feeling just the one operating the guage.
sorry was probably misleading saying it was drowning in fuel, it feels like it starts to bog down somewhat after 4000rpm, reducing max power (max torque is still ok..), and my dyno readout in my thread (i don't want to highjack this one!), shows the A/F ratio dropping below 10 after 4000rpm.
and yep air take intake sensor is also one of the sensors we are going to log.
fingers crossed.

mine could be the same as what the people on here are describing, but just perhaps just on a smaller scale. i've not had anyone notice black smoke.

[h100vw]

The water temp sensor has 2 parts to it. One feeds the gauge and the other feeds the ECU. If it has been replaced then it would be unlikely but not impossible that it was duff.

The AFR dropping to 10-1 is a symptom not the problem. You need to base your troubleshooting on that.

Gavin

[Jmac]

Ahh that's right. You mentioned that you used to live in these parts. I'm going to be getting back from a trip to NZ on the easter monday. If you're still around after that, and i've still got issues, i'll be very keen to take you up on that offer

Yeah ill be taking my thinkpad mate and will be around all weekend, not sure when we are heading off, will let you know. Where abouts in Newwie are ya??? ill be in Georgetown for a day and heading out bayside for a couple
Cheers and will be happy to help if i can
Jmac

[bujna]

I'm out at Maitland, but newy's not far for me to travel if it works out easier.

I regapped my BKR7E plugs to .026 before work today, and the car was not stuttering in 3rd or 4th gear in full boost, but it still did it, albeit much more mildly, in 5th gear. On the way home tonight though, it was back to how it was yesterday.. Stuttering in 3rd, 4th, 5th...

I'm going to buy some bkr6e's tomorrow since it's cheap enough to try them out. Should i go with the stock .032 gap or drop to .028?

Are there any tests i can do on the ignition sensor to make sure that's out of the equation? I know i've just replaced it, but it seems odd to me that my car has acquired a distaste for bkr7e's all of a sudden...