HELP!!! Im scared - gear box/thrust bearing noise

[courtz1976-2dr]

Hi there Everyone,

Please help me to stop having the rather major panic attack that I am having at the moment, heres the story

Just finished putting back together my engine/gearbox after install of NEW gearbox, clutch kit timing chain etc.

When started with clutch depressed no noise, and everything sounds sweet, BUT when I let the clutch out I am getting a noise that sounds like the thrust bearing but not too sure - this is a brand new gearbox and the noise is concerning - is it just that everything is "dry" (the gearbox shipped dry) and the oil has not made it's way up to the gearbox yet or is the thrust bearing suspect (is brand new also) I am going to try selecting a gear and see if that is ok but I am freaking, if htis engine has to come out again

PLEASE HELP


UPDATE

Just tried selecting gear and releasing clutch a little the noise is not really there car wants to move but dont want to drive yet. the noise is much more pronounced in neutral with clutch let out. I am pissed it sounds like this thrust bearing new is dodgy I REALLY do not want to pull this engine out again any suggestions????

[h100vw]

Is it a VR6, you talk about timing chains. The engine doesn't have to come out to remove the gearbox. Have you driven it or is it on axle stands?
Gavin

[courtz1976-2dr]

Hi Gavin,

Yes VR6 - sorry I wasn't more specific - I have had the engine split and whilst out did the timing chains, they sound fine. At the same time I have fitted a new o2j (car is mk3 golf) flywheel clutch pressure plate and new thrust bearing - the gearbox came with new lever etc.

I am yet to drive it as this is the first start after reassembly. here are the symptoms

neutral clutch depressed - no noise
" Clutch out - noisy but of a tick tick tick before full stroke and then fairly noisy
1st selected clutch in no noise, slowly let out, can hear clutch engaging and biting car moves but have not driven yet due to concerns above. no noise but have not released clutch full yet.

I really hope that a new sachs bearing wouldn't be the cause and I was anal about the install.

Thanks for any help

[h100vw]

The tick tick thing has caught my eye. The throw out lever on the mk4 box, did you have a look at it before it went in? I had an A3 and the lever cracked and split. The result was that the edge of it was bent far enough to touch the rivets around the edge of the clutch cover.

A new lever was $40 from VW. It's the same part on the 02A, although VW have uprated it as the part number has been superseded.

Read your post again and don't think it's the lever, mine was noisy with the clutch in, not out. The bearing being noisy would be an irritant but not fatal.

I think it could be a bit of drag in the clutch. I reckon I would drive it up the road if it were mine and see what the score is then. Or jack it up and run the engine and go through the gears on stands.

Gavin

[courtz1976-2dr]

I just managed to go for a small (very small) drive first of all couldn't get reverse (shifter alignment) then no brakes (wasp nest if vacuum hose) but noise is stil there only a little bit of noise when pressed in but sounds really bad released . I really cant understand what this may be any ideas. if it was binding then it would make noise when under load it. I removed the clutch slave cylinder to have a look see lever moves freely and is brand new (but is mk4 and came with box is there any difference???) still makes the same noise .could it be binding on the gearbox sleeve but this should all be the same. any ideas would be appreciated.

Cheers and regards,
Courtney

[courtz1976-2dr]

Have pulled the gearbox out again and have discovered that it is WAY worse than I thought. Pressure plate studs are actually chewing into the gearbox housing and thank god I didn't drive it. The amount of damage is slight but it has worn about a 0.2mm arc into where the output shaft end cap is on the gearbox, exactly the same area that was obliterated in the previous gearbox.

Now is it possible that the crankshaft is moving enough to cause this ie endfloat is there any "tin" bits that go between the gearbox and engine block (they weren't there on disassembly)

What would be the problem to cause enough movement in the crankshaft for this to happen - ie clutch depressed no noise clutch let out...well you can imagine the sound. This engine has only done 90.000 KM and had no indications of any main bearing wear.

Everything from the crank shaft outwards was new, now possibly cactus. please anyone with some advice.


Cheers and Regards,
Courtney

[h100vw]

Hey mate, can you take us a picture of the damage please?
Gavin

[courtz1976-2dr]

Here goes, I hope you can view them. UPDATE I have been comparing the old (LuK) pressure plate vs the new (Sachs) pressure plate and the studs on the sachs sit out (more proud) by about 1.1mm when measure from the mating surface to the full height of the studs. I have also used a lever at both ends of engine to see if there is any play - maybe .2mm when levering back and forth it can be felt at the end of the levers (between front pully + flywheel)

Anyways here are the pics

https://picasaweb.google.com/115700786362372934801/Vr6Hell?authkey=Gv1sRgCMeY7IKjmqS1bg#5600192281744789122

you can see where the studs have gouged out a bit of the gearbox casing

https://picasaweb.google.com/115700786362372934801/Vr6Hell?authkey=Gv1sRgCMeY7IKjmqS1bg#5600192264305084034

Another angle

What do you reckon?? I am not impressed if it is the sachs plate being a little bigger, hard to tell what the clearances are like inside the gearbox..

Thanks.

[courtz1976-2dr]

HI there everyone,

can someone give me a howto to check end float on the vr6 and where I need to check it from ie between what journal or bearing. I have done a search but to no avail. It is the only thing that I can think of... Matt I know your out there somewhere have you had any experience with the above issues.

Cheers and Regards,
courtney

[Jmac]

Hi, just having a read here. If it were the bolts causing that it would rub all of the time. Did you sit clutch and pressure plate side by side mirror image etc to check heights? Only really seen that with the 020 gearbox as there is clutch variants, sounds like could be misaligned, did the pressure plate sit snug in the dowels? Doesnt take much to misalign them on install
Cheers
Jmac

[courtz1976-2dr]

Thanks for the response Jmac

I have been particularly careful on install and it all only lines up one way - the dowels only allow fittment of the pressure plate only they are lined up properly. The part that is rubbing is the studs on the pressure plate itself and can see the rub marks on the new pressure plate (only on the studs) and the damage on the gearbox itself.

When looking at the pressure plates side by side the LuK studs come out less than the sachs plate by about 1mm - the whole lot - flywheel, PP, clutch was bought from germanautoparts as a kit - there is movement in the crank but only a tiny amount that requires levering back and forth from both end of the engine.

Here is a photo of the new pressure plate so you can see what is actually hitting the gearbox. Any other insights would be great, I am goind to take the flywheel off and make sure there is nothing stopping it seating correctly. Surely the clearance between PP and gearbox would be this minimal need to allow for a little wear.

I have taken a photo of 2 studs here and the scuffing on the studs is uniform on all studs

https://picasaweb.google.com/115700786362372934801/Vr6Hell?authkey=Gv1sRgCMeY7IKjmqS1bg#5600412242270705714

https://picasaweb.google.com/115700786362372934801/Vr6Hell?authkey=Gv1sRgCMeY7IKjmqS1bg#5600412269916992562

I think I am going to be driven to drink, 9:30 isn't too early

[Jmac]

Nice clear pics there mate, I see what you mean. If it were me and you have the original bits i would remove the flywheel and sandwich all the original together and measure it, then do the same with the new one. I get the picture though. Just to recap mate how much of the engine was overhauled??? , i have seen a VERY similar thing the more i read this. I mentioned ive seen the same with 020, but its way different. What i see happening here is the same as ive seen on a Polo Gti. He experienced the same grinding noise. Turns out the thust washer in the crank was mashed up and did in fact cause excessive end float. It ended up with a new engine. The same marks were on the gearbox housing, and it had an 02R transmission, sister unit of the o2A you have.
So how much was doen to the engine mate??
Cheers
Jmac

[courtz1976-2dr]

HI there Jmac,

Again thanks for your time here, much appreciated - with the engine I have only done the timing chain bits (tensioners upper/lower chain and guides) nothing else - the car/engine had only 96000km when I bought it and ran beautiful so really didn;t think it was in any way "tired" Now I have had a chance to do some comparison between old and new clutch/flywheel parts and here are the findings.

I sat the flywheel on an old centre of innner cv joint to give clearance off my desk so that on both measurements have a common reference height and to make sure that I could measure mating surface to mating surface(I hope this makes sense). distance from Crankshaft to Pplate mating surface I mean here.

new setup flywheel approx 58mm off desk
old setup flywheel approx 56.5 off desk

and then we have the additional height of the rivets on the new pressure plate too of approx 1.1mm-1.2mm over the original Luk giving a total of approx (1.5mm+1.1-1.2mm) of 2.6-2.7mm greater distance from crankshaft-flywheel mating surface to outer extent of rivet.

So hmmmmm this is quite a bit really but still not got any concrete clearance figure between the pressure plate and gearbox.

Back to the engine - so again levering from both ends I can see that there is at max .1 of mm backwards and forwards movement I am no mechanic but have rebuilt a couple of engines in the past (on my mk1's mk2's etc) I have felt this amount of movement with brand new thrust bearings etc in place. Is it possible to have had the thrust crushed and still have little this little movement OR is this in fact a lot of movement????

If you are ever in the Agnes Water area I owe you are beer. Thanks for the insights

[Jmac]

End float sounds ok to me mate, and you havre answered my question to how it was before the job and how much you tore the engine down. All sounds like the engine is pretty right mate. How i was hoping you would measure it would be flywheel, fit the pressure plate and clutch to it and measure the sandwich ( make sense) and do the same with the new set up. Sounds like there is a drama with the clutch set up now. Engine should be good especially with the kss..
By the way thats not a lot of movement. It all sounds like it was cool till the new kit was fitted.
Im mobile 90% of the time mate, pardon my ignorance where is Agnes water??? sorry.
If im in the area i dont mind having a squizz.
Cheers
Jmac

[courtz1976-2dr]

Hi there Jimmymac,

Agnes is halfway between bundaberg and gladstone on the coast, nice little place but pretty isolated and noone that knows much about vw's. I thought that the engine should be pretty cool but wasn't 100% considering the problems. To the clutch now the problem with the sandwich method is that the old flywheel (original) has more "meat" on the engine side than the new "lightened version." if I sat both on the desk the mating surface (crank to PP) of the old one doesn't actually touch the desk . The distance cant be measured with calipers because of more "meat" on engine side so this is why I sat both on top of the "spacer" so that the flywheel to crank surface was the point that I measured. The shots hopefully explain the logic. but yes there is definatley some difference there. Now that I have some confidence in the engine I am going to put everything back but with new friction plate (after the old flywheel is cleaned up a bit) and let you know how i go - I am wondering if anyone else has bought this lightened flywheel kit from germanautoparts.com I would be interested if there were any issues.

Photos

https://picasaweb.google.com/115700786362372934801/Vr6Hell?authkey=Gv1sRgCMeY7IKjmqS1bg#5600922602275164466

https://picasaweb.google.com/115700786362372934801/Vr6Hell?authkey=Gv1sRgCMeY7IKjmqS1bg#5600922610718221010

https://picasaweb.google.com/115700786362372934801/Vr6Hell?authkey=Gv1sRgCMeY7IKjmqS1bg#5600922606003209810