How to mount a 4 point Harness in a stock MK1?

[Peter Jones]

As the title says - How do I mount a 4 Point Harness in a stock MK1?

The car is a '79 model so it doesn't have the anchor point on the tunnel, but that's pretty easy to set up properly, I just did this for a '59 beetle.

Can I use the mounting point for the retractor on the other side?

And where can I take the shoulder straps to? The upper child restraints would seem OK but they're offset and higher than the shoulder position.

The rear seat belt mounts are also offset from the centreline of the seat.

Do I need a fabricated bar to hook up to the rear mounts to do this properly and what are the requirements (CAMS, etc) for this to be legal?

Any thoughts anyone?

Pete

[Jarred]

hmm.. been to bendigo (or ballarat) recently pete?

[Peter Jones]

hmm.. been to bendigo (or ballarat) recently pete?

Yep! $100 and 300km later.........

Pete

[ValveBounce]

Maybe contact CAMS in person to see what cage and build types you can have. If your going to be using it in CAMS even pay an engineer to give you the right idea and maybe get him to check it during the build.

[alex g]

i have seen them mounted to both the upper offset(rear shoulder point)and also on the floor(ie rear lower mount) both of which i dont really think are ideal, i am mounting mine off my cage so the height is more centralised to the driver/passenger but still not really ideal as they are still a little low

[Bluerex]

Save yourself a LOT of grief, contact John Rawson at Tayel. He built the cage for my Rally car (Mk1) and is THE MAN as far as this stuff goes. PM me if you cant find his details locally.

Best of luck,

Charles.

PS

still going...

[Antdragonist]

i got a couple of 4 points on my 77, i dont see what the question is really lol.
maybe the 79 is missing some points compared to mine but i just undid the original belts, so that took care of 2 points for either side of the seat, got no back seat so there was 1 almost directly behind the front seat and 1 on the closest wall just above the ledge bit behind the seat.

bugger knows how youd do it with a back seat tho! lol

[Peter Jones]

I'll probably pull the back seat out on the few occaisions I put it on the track so using the rear lap belt mount should be OK, it would probably work between the seat cushions too if I had to. I guess my question is has anybody done this and got it past scrutineering?

The 76/77 MK I's had the seatbelt mount on the tunnel. Sometime after that VW put the seatbelt mount onto the seat itself. I'll have to put a mount into the tunnel myself, which shouldn't be too hard. I've already had discussions with an engineer about how to do it properly because I'm doing the same thing to a 59 beetle.

So all in all it sounds pretty simple if I can use the rear belt mount than all I need to do is set up the mount in the tunnel.

Mounting the seat is the next challenge! I'm going to re-engineer a standard base to bolt up to the seat. Guess I'll need an engineer to give it the thumbs up though. Does anyone have any experience with the process of getting these things approved?

Pete

[craig_the_german]

Harness Mounts

Hi,

I am not an engineer but have studied engineering and work in engineering and have done so since my trade days (fitter and turner)

I would certainly NOT use any child restraint anchor points as they may look ok but will only be load rated for probably a child weighing no more the 12kg (thats the usual rating anyway)

I would also be very careful mounting / remounting seats.

I unfortunately witnessed a fatal accident at Willowbank Raceway (QLD) where the driver of a drag car was killed when his seat came away from the car. He was firmly strapped into the seat but the entire assembly was torn from the floor.

You also need to be very careful with the angles of harnesses when they go over the shoulders, the wrong angle and in an accident you could do damage to your spine if the belts are at the wrong angle. The existing mounting points for seat belts for road cars are again engineered for the belts to pull at certain angles. If you change the angles that the load is applied in an accident, the mounting point may become next to useless.

Just a word of warning, you can never be too careful. As the other guys have said, pay the extra for an engineer to design and certify any changes to seat and belts.

[gldgti]

you may be able to install a bar behind the rear seat, just above the shock towers on either side. a horizontal bar in this position will gove you an anchor in line withthe shoulder height from the front seats. i have seen a bar of this kind in mollin's mk1 2 door project car.

i'm not positive, but i think the shoulder straps need to be +-30deg from the horizontal...

[Peter Jones]

Hi,

I am not an engineer but have studied engineering and work in engineering and have done so since my trade days (fitter and turner)

I would certainly NOT use any child restraint anchor points as they may look ok but will only be load rated for probably a child weighing no more the 12kg (thats the usual rating anyway)

I would also be very careful mounting / remounting seats.

I unfortunately witnessed a fatal accident at Willowbank Raceway (QLD) where the driver of a drag car was killed when his seat came away from the car. He was firmly strapped into the seat but the entire assembly was torn from the floor.

You also need to be very careful with the angles of harnesses when they go over the shoulders, the wrong angle and in an accident you could do damage to your spine if the belts are at the wrong angle. The existing mounting points for seat belts for road cars are again engineered for the belts to pull at certain angles. If you change the angles that the load is applied in an accident, the mounting point may become next to useless.

Just a word of warning, you can never be too careful. As the other guys have said, pay the extra for an engineer to design and certify any changes to seat and belts.

Yep, that's sort of what I expected, I've got no problems with getting the say so from an engineer. Once I've put a bit more thought into the matter I'll give Bill M. from VWCV a call and get some direction from him before I get in too deep. Bill's an auto engineer and golf racer so I'm confident I'll get the job done right. For now I'm still working out what questions I need to ask him and everyone's input here is helping with that.


Pete

[Peter Jones]

you may be able to install a bar behind the rear seat, just above the shock towers on either side. a horizontal bar in this position will gove you an anchor in line withthe shoulder height from the front seats. i have seen a bar of this kind in mollin's mk1 2 door project car.

i'm not positive, but i think the shoulder straps need to be +-30deg from the horizontal...

I think I've seen a bar in the past that bolted between the shoulder seatbelt mounts and tri-angulated back to the child restraints but again it looks like a job for an engineers superpowers!

Pete

[Peter Jones]

Found some more info on the CAMS website - here.

http://www.camsmanual.com.au/pdf/general/0610_Schedule_I_Q108.pdf

[Blue Flog]

Harness Mounts

Peter,
The CAMS manual on the web site will give you the recommendations for harness angles. JR at Tayell (95795529) built my car and cage and I think that you will be able to put a cross bar behind the rear seats and drop the seats when you need the harness
Darcy