Let the tinkering begin...

[gregozedobe]

On that my oil is sitting at 180 deg F on cruising, climbing to 200 F if I'm up it at the sump. A much better location, I can see real time heat buildup and drop in the oil. That's 82 - 93 deg C in new speak.

That seems like pretty good oil temps. It may go a bit higher still if you go up a long, steepish uphill climb, as that will get the turbo working harder for longer.

I believe a hard working turbo puts a fair bit of heat into both the coolant AND the oil on water cooled turbo diesels. I certainly notice the heater kicking in much better on my TDI when I go up hills on frosty Canberra mornings and nights (and I look forward to some cooler weather again after our curent heat wave ends). The heater can then actually cool down again as you go down a long downhill if the engine isn't fully warmed up yet (very thermodynamically efficient these modern TDIs).

Speaking of cool weather, when we do finally get some, I'd be very interested in how much longer it takes to warm your engine oil up after the coolant has reached 90C ie how long does it take for a TDI engine to reach proper operating temperature in both coolant AND engine oil ? A lot of people think that once the coolant has warmed up you can then flog your engine, but in cold weather I suspect it may be quite some time after that before your oil is properly warmed up as well.

[Greg Roles]

You're spot on greggo, I've noticed it takes about 10 minutes of regular traffic for the oil to both show some temp rise, and to drop in viscosity. Normal oil operating pressure is 20-60 psi on my gauge, and at revs when it's cold it's showing up to 100. I am suprised that the oil is running "around" engine coolant temps, in the sump at least. I'm sure once it goes through the turbo it's a different story! At least VW had the good sense to run the oil through the cooler, then direct to turbo, then back to engine. I'm still nutting out the best way to boost that cooling, either by increasing the water cooling component of the oil cooler ( small effect ) or by actually cooling the oil or the pipe on the way to the turbo. I am reluctant to increase the volume between the cooler and the turbo, so that the turbo bearings still get oil on startup in the shortest possible time. All in the aim of countering future boost increases.

I've no qualitative data as yet, but as a rough guide it takes about twice as long for the oil to show some heat rise as it does for the coolant to show operating temps. It's the main reason I installed an oil temp gauge, as on my old ford GT I used to wait for the oil to heat up before flogging it in any way, and the TDI is no different, even if it is a tractor!

I'll be monitoring it over the coming weeks and will see if I can expand on that.

[Greg Roles]

Well I can confirm that on the drive it, when I checked at traffic lights, that the water temp guage showed normal 90 degree operation from 83 to 92 degrees according to Vag com. It didn't rise much above 92 at any point of sitting idle.

The oil temps took longer to rise, and I'd say that with a quiet drive in the oil wasn't showing temps for a good 5kms. Water was up, according to the VW gauge in half the time.

Oil sat at around 82 degrees once at temp, which corresponds to my 180 F reading on the aftermarket gauge.

No boosting on the way in, and would be kinda hard to drive it so AND look at laptop Vag readings. Wil have to enroll my girlie, bet she'll be thrilled!

[gldgti]

good to hear some hard data coming out of all of this cog - nice work.

i have no temp guages apart from the in dash coolant temp in my mk3 as yet - i use the oil pressure readings as my temperature reading too - just by looking for the telltale drop in viscosity as it warms up.

I have to say that after hearing your temps though, i'm very interested to put some guages in my car.

my coolant temp guage reads a cool 75 deg on the cruise, and will idle up to 90-95 sitting still in traffic.... UNLESS the a/c is on, in which case the dual fans come on behind the radiator and cools it right back down to about 79deg.... this got me thinking about hte heat soak in traffic thing - probably best just to switch on the a/c and let the radiator fans pull ait through hte intercooler for you.

still no EGT readings???

[Greg Roles]

Haven't hooked up the probe for my aftermarket EGT gauge as yet, need to weld in a port or splice the stock one, but I've no doubt I'll be able to track it on vag com via the stock probe. I can get several temps at once, and I just need to use my digital probes to confirm what each one is.

Don't worry, my propane and tune plan means EGT's are critical to monitor.

[Greg Roles]

For the record, it seems that at around the same time as the stock water temp gauge shows 90 degree operating temp, the oil temps start to register, and this morning it took about three minutes to get the water temp up, and then about another 3 mins to reach the 80 degree mark for normal driving in the Golf.

So oil temps take approx twice as long as engine coolant temps, but once the water is up to temp, the oil has some heat in it, and the pressure / viscosity starts to drop to normal levels.

[Greg Roles]

[greygolf8]

was just flicking tv channels & noticed on abc New Inventors 2 guys from Dungog talking about injecting lpg into diesel engines for better economy & perfomance. called gastek ?, costs about $5k. its bolt on. did not really give more details, apart from it uses some feedback to control/vary the lpg injection. Thou their website only shows 4wd / utes, no vw tests

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors

http://www.gastek.com.au

[Greg Roles]

was just flicking tv channels & noticed on abc New Inventors 2 guys from Dungog talking about injecting lpg into diesel engines for better economy & perfomance. called gastek ?, costs about $5k. its bolt on. did not really give more details, apart from it uses some feedback to control/vary the lpg injection. Thou their website only shows 4wd / utes, no vw tests

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors

http://www.gastek.com.au

Yeah mate, propane injection isn't anything new, but perhaps these guys were injecting it directly into the cylinders rather than a "dry" intake feed as per usual. The aforementioned Diesel book outlines some interesting points there. LPG will burn more effectively with the diesel, and in fact burn faster thus using up all the oxygen for a better bang and thus power output. Basically a second fuel, but good old "Banksy" ( from the book ) points out it's hard to work out which is effectively burning, and what is being wasted with dual fuels. Problem is they reckon the diesel kinda gets "wasted" and the LPG pre-ignites in pockets and doesn't give a controlled burn. All that said it still produces quite a power increase, but so too higher exhaust temps, and our oil cooled turbo's especially with VNT are quite vunerable there.

Also, now that the gov has a $2k rebate on the fitment of LPG, well all the install prices have gone up...wait for it....$2k.

WAS my plan, but I'm researching "other" gasses now.... the Diesel tuning book is truely EVIL

[comfortline]

Also, now that the gov has a $2k rebate on the fitment of LPG, well all the install prices have gone up...wait for it....$2k.
:

Noooooo, they wouldn't have done that would they?

Brother had problems with gas on this VQ statesman, takes it into a place to get fixed...

Long story short, they put in a whole new system, which cost...wait for it....3.5K

Got to love rebates....straight into the pockets of business.

[gldgti]

WAS my plan, but I'm researching "other" gasses now.... the Diesel tuning book is truely EVIL

hydrogen? i would think that hydrogen would prove to be a good addition to a diesel combustion process - clean too.... so long as you can get it by some efficient means (and not running power out of the grid)... got panels on your house maybe

i've been wondering if maybe a DIY setup using some off the shelf items could be cobbled together, inlcuding one or two of those propane refill canisters you can buy at the hardware store... you know, just for those few occasions when you want some extra oomph.

[Greg Roles]

Nitrous mate! I still can't rule out propane, for it's legal, and a lot cheaper. ANY of these choices are a ways off as yet, but I'm doing a lot of research. I'll definately go down one of these roads, if not only to silence those damn TSI'ers.

Still up in the air about the water intercooler idea, the book and the yanks seem to frown on it, and it appears heatsoak is the issue. Research continues, but currently want to get the EGT hooked up asap. Following oil temps and pressure has been educational, and I can report the oil sits at 80-90 degrees in the sump, which is around engine coolant temp, so my idea of boosting the oil cooling doesn't seem quite as necessary for now. With mods and higher turbo temps possibly, that may change!

[572]

Greg, do you think the 'fan on intercooler' theory could be applied to those of us with side mount intercoolers, with good results? As opposed to fitting a sizable front mount intercooler kit.

Sorry to go slightly off topic, but I need to pick your brain

[Greg Roles]

Absolutely, but only if you included a water mister in front of the cooler as well. Pulling air across a wet cooler would be a huge boost in efficiency. I am planning on measuring temps across my stock cooler in the next few days, then plumbing in my Autospeed coffee pump mister, and seeing if there is a measurable difference. I would expect so. Also you'll get nice small, lightweight fans from a motorcycle wrecker, one off a large road bike would be ideal. You want high flow, and a smallish motor body to take up as little room on the cooler as possible.

Ideally hook the fan up to a pressure switch, so it only runs when your speed is low, and it can then just freewheel at speed. If it's running, at 100kph, it would probably be a restriction at a guess.

Also make sure the side mount has good inlet and especially outlet air flow. I'd also consider insulation on the pipe from the cool side to the manifold, even if only at any potential "hot" points, near the engine etc. I plan on wrapping the entire cool side once I'm done.

Maximise what you have! Autospeed had a GREAT test of various wrecker intercoolers, so might be worth having a look if any of these jap items would be a possible, more efficient, cheap upgrade for the Polo. Perhaps even in series with the stocker. Remember a bigger cooler will be more efficient, but will also add volume and drop boost. You're trying to offset any volume boost loss with enough increase in air density to make it worthwhile.

http://autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=1931

http://autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=1946

[Greg Roles]

Water sprays:

http://autospeed.com/cms/search/inde...ercooler+spray

Intercooler fans:

http://autospeed.com/cms/search/inde...ntercooler+fan

Autospeed is your friend!!