Sump level rise 2010 103TDI PD

[Skooter]

Apologies if this has been discussed already; have searched without result (if it has been posted, please reply with the link and ignore).

Skoda Octavia Scout 103TDI PD with DPF, 4x4 6-sp manual, build year 2010. I am the 2nd owner, bought with 47,000 on the clock Oct 2012, previous service history with dealer who sold the car (Richmond Skoda).

Car runs like a dream, never misses a beat, love it to pieces (my missus and I fight for the keys ). Just out of warranty, decided to do my 60 thou service myself, starting with the oil and filter. Much to my horror, drop the drain plug and my BIG drain pan starts to fill up ... and fill up some more ... and more ... and more ... until I have so much watery, black liquid that I can't move the pan without it splashing all over the driveway.

I measure it out at 8 ... yep, that's right EIGHT litres . Have read some English forum threads where sump rise is due to tandem pump leaks allowing diesel to leak into sump via head drain, but sense that tandem pumps are found on older models? No noticeable smell of diesel in the oil. As mentioned, car has been faultless, power delivery smooth, strong and sublime. No unusual engine noise above a stock VW diesel.

Not only am I baffled, I'm bloody scared! What the *^#@!! could cause that??!! And how can a donk run so well with 8 litres of fluid gushing around in its belly? Last service invoice states 'oil 5L' (and the stuff is so exxy they're unlikely to waste it!). Foolishly I hadn't checked oil level once, as I had no expectation that a near new car would have oil consumption probs - now I'm staring at the complete opposite!

Have so far refilled with Shell Helix Ultra Extra (probably take around 5L with the new filter) and Haldex IV fluid change. Couldn't start cos I left the ignition on all day and flattened the battery (on charge as I write). My question is, where to from here? Had hoped to use the loot saved on the service labour to put towards an Oettinger remap, but need to sort this first. Someone please tell me this is simple and that it hasn't done irreparable damage to my most beloved of oilers!

[kaanage]

Diesels can also 'make' oil due to leakage of diesel past the piston rings. This is particularly likely in cars with DPFs if they perform a lot of active regenerations as these cycles require unburnt fuel to pass out the exhaust to burn in the DPF. A byproduct of this (as well as increased fuel consumption) is that it is far more likely for liquid diesel to end up on the cylinder walls and for some of this to get past the rings into the sump.

The final effect is that your oil is thinned out and you are more likely to suffer from wear in heavily loaded bearings. I suspect that this is the real reason VAG won't allow high percentages of biodiesel to be used as oxidation of biodiesel in the sump would have far worse effects.

Have a read of this http://subdiesel.wordpress.com/2011/...dilution-graph and if you're really interested, http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...jundaswamy.pdf

[gldgti]

The PD engines do have a 'tandem pump' - its the fuel pump on the gearbox end of the head.
Monitor your oil level for the next 1000km carefully. If you notice it increasing, you might well have a fuel dilution problem.

There is always the possibility that at the previous service new oil was added without draining the old oil.

Its quite normal for hot engine oil used in these cars (5w-30 is very runny anwway) to be VERY runny when you drain it, but of course diesel will make oil runny aswell.

[Skooter]

Thanks for the two replies. I had a read of the article on oil dilution and PDF regen (all the more reason to hate DPFs?), but nothing I've read, even the myriad stuff on tandem pump diesel leaks into the sump could account for nearly double the quantity of oil I found in mine.

Gldgti's post hit me like a whack in the head, because I hadn't considered for a second that any official dealership could be quite that effing hopeless - but putting a few things together has forced me to consider that that may indeed be a genuine possibility: car running well, no ugly noises from a 50/50 oil-diesel mix, pretty much double a std fill quantity found in the sump, no auto-combustion revout (and big-bang) from sump-diesel evaporation(!!), even the simple chance of something as simple as an oil drain being overlooked prior to filling (c/w filling the motor with oil before you've refitted the drain plug ... only happens once in your lifetime!).

I'll take your advice and monitor oil level VERY closely and if things start to creep I'll look further - if not, I'm stumped - do I contact Rich Skoda and mention what I've discovered? No way they're going to a) remember if they did or did not drain the old oil at 45,000, b) no way they'd admit it if they did! I'm contemplating asking them to run an oil diag on the clean 5L I have (the other 3L I emptied into a 5L bottle that had 2L of unused supermarket oil in it already.

What troubles me is how much life may have been stolen from a super motor - from that perspective, I'm 1000 times happier thinking it's have 8L of oil in it (albeit a 50/50 mix of old and new), than contemplating the kind of wear that a 50% dilution would create.

[gldgti]

Thanks for the two replies. I had a read of the article on oil dilution and PDF regen (all the more reason to hate DPFs?), but nothing I've read, even the myriad stuff on tandem pump diesel leaks into the sump could account for nearly double the quantity of oil I found in mine.

Gldgti's post hit me like a whack in the head, because I hadn't considered for a second that any official dealership could be quite that effing hopeless - but putting a few things together has forced me to consider that that may indeed be a genuine possibility: car running well, no ugly noises from a 50/50 oil-diesel mix, pretty much double a std fill quantity found in the sump, no auto-combustion revout (and big-bang) from sump-diesel evaporation(!!), even the simple chance of something as simple as an oil drain being overlooked prior to filling (c/w filling the motor with oil before you've refitted the drain plug ... only happens once in your lifetime!).

I'll take your advice and monitor oil level VERY closely and if things start to creep I'll look further - if not, I'm stumped - do I contact Rich Skoda and mention what I've discovered? No way they're going to a) remember if they did or did not drain the old oil at 45,000, b) no way they'd admit it if they did! I'm contemplating asking them to run an oil diag on the clean 5L I have (the other 3L I emptied into a 5L bottle that had 2L of unused supermarket oil in it already.

What troubles me is how much life may have been stolen from a super motor - from that perspective, I'm 1000 times happier thinking it's have 8L of oil in it (albeit a 50/50 mix of old and new), than contemplating the kind of wear that a 50% dilution would create.

honestly, I think filling without draining could happen easily, given the right circumstances.... new guy, 2 different techs working on the same car, etc.

used oil analysis would be ideal, but not sure where to get it done, or how much it costs. You could possible try an experiment yourself though - for instance -you could try putting some of your old oil, and a sample of new oil as a control, out in the sun in identical containers for a few days, and weigh them periodically. If the used oil mass drops considerably, it may have lots of fuel in it. Diesel takes AGES to evaporate at room temperatures, but it will evaporate.... eventually.

[Skooter]

Not sure where to look for an oil diag either (have only read about such things on a US TDI forum). Spoke to my pro mechanic/brains trust and he also doubts a motor with only 60,000ks could dump that much fuel into the sump - and he even suggested it may have been drained ... but filled twice! Same scenario, two different techs, lunch hour, blah blah ... actually a preferable outcome to having 4.5L of new oil with 4.5L of used oil.

On a brighter note, I go the battery back up to charge (trickled overnight and still didn't fill until after about 15 hours). Started first touch of the key and runs beautifully. Definitely sounds a little quieter (even tho 8+L should dampen engine noise pretty well!) and feels smoother. Main difference is a sudden willingness to rev hard right through the range, whereas before it would taper off quickly over about 3.

Once again I can rest assured the work has been done, and done properly. If I ever do have to entrust it to a stealership I'll NEVER believe that the job's been done right until I check such minor matters as sump fill!!

Tomorrow I fit the fuel filter and that's it, all good. Haldex IV fluid replacement was an easy job, made hard by having to crawl under the car 10 times with my 60ml syringe (plus the few extra crawls to undo drain, inspect etc) to get the 600ml. Also discovered just how bad the factory jack is!! Couldn't raise it high enough to get my new car stands under it. Ended up employing the old Holder HR bottle jacks I've kept for decades!

In the meantime, will try the evap test and monitor the dipstick.

[gldgti]

I dont want to rain on any parades for you, but I also think its worth mentioning that the DPF will likely have suffered from having over filled engine oil.

However, its pretty hard to take a measure of what effect there might have been, if any, unfortunately. Here's hoping for you!

(Excessive amounts of oil being burned will create more ash, which is the main contributor to shortening of dpf life, as the ash clogs the pores in the dpf but cannot be burnt out like soot can).

[Skooter]

I take heart from the fact that if it was indeed a double fill, then it's been that way for 14 months and 15000km, so if a clog was going to occur I would (hopefully?) have had some evidence of it by now. Fact is I've had nothing to alarm me whatsoever. Optimism is my only friend n this affair!

I actually went to Richmond Skoda today and discussed the overfull sump and was assured that their techs wouldn't make a mistake like that (double checks and all that) ... naturally they'd say that. How can I prove anything? I expressed my concern at possible premature probs with the DPF and was told if there was a problem to come back and discuss it. Only alternative for them at the mo would be to hoist it and remove & inspect the DPF - on a car running perfectly. Ain't gonna happen.

As you say, here's hoping (things are OK). It's running even better than it was before after it's service (and with the correct oil level!!).

[Johnnojack]

So lucky you didn't have a runaway engine with so much oil/fuel in there. As the fuel pump is on the end of the head, driven by the camshaft I guess, a leaking seal could be allowing fuel into the rocker cover? Could also be leaking in from the injectors/seals. Check oil level every morning before starting with car parked in exact same spot. I'll put a few dollars on fuel leaking in.

[gldgti]

If it wasn't no insensitive to Skooter, I would suggest we start a bit of a pool

[Skooter]

I'd agree with the fuel possibility if we weren't talking about something in the order of 4 litres ... that's one hell of a lot of diesel to leak (and would probably mean atrocious fuel econ!). And would surely be associated with an obvious smell of fuel in the oil - which there ain't. Will absolutely monitor oil level until I'm sure I am safe. Bloody stressful, the whole episode. As I said to the dealer yesterday, it's either an overfill error on your part, or something that dates back well into the valid warranty period (expired 2 months and 600km ago). If it's a tandem pump, I'd bet my knackers they won't buy into replacement under warranty. For now, I survive on optimism.

Didn't quite get the 'pool' gag, GLD??? The only pool I can picture is the one I found in my sump three days ago !!

[kaanage]

Any more findings on your oil?

[gldgti]

Didn't quite get the 'pool' gag, GLD??? The only pool I can picture is the one I found in my sump three days ago !!

Just mean take bets for/against fuel contamination or overfill

[Skooter]

Just mean take bets for/against fuel contamination or overfill

Mean indeed!! Been out of town (lots of opps to clean it all out and hopefully perform some regens!). Been monitoring oil level every day and it hasn't moved a millimeter up the stick. Must have covered over 1000ks, mostly 80+kph. So at this early stage, the odds are hopefully tending towards the overfill (taking the inside run on the rails!).

My worry is still what if any damage has the DPF suffered from either eventuality. Not something I'm able to monitor (is there ANY way to determine ash contam in a DPF?). I don;t have much to lay on the service manager's desk - "you've done something dodgy to my car that's reduced the life of a very expensive component by X-km or X-years. And if it wasn't your doing, then it must be fuel contamination - and that's a warranty issue ... even tho the warranty has expired"!!

At the mo, car's running a treat and oil level is static. How many k's do I need to cover before the bet's settled?

[Skooter]

Oh, and meant to ask: how do I know when the car is performing a regen? Some members talk of rough running, high idle ... I've never felt a thing. Would feel a lot better if the MFD just told me it was about to do the biz ... a warning, so I could make sure I let the thing finish its burn! If I had VCDS I'd probably let my other half clog it up with too much city driving (I cycle everywhere in town!) and I could do forced regens.

Probably going to have a Oettinger remap in a few weeks, if I can satisfy myself the DPF ain't gonna swallow the household budget!