DID IT! sprayed a can of throttle body/ carby cleaner into the egr/manifold....

[Buller_Scott]

hey gang.

first off, this is a big deal for me, because despite having the assurances of all the guys who posted in preeny's caddy manifold thread, im a chicken, a big frigging bauk bauking chicken.

and ive never done anything like this at all before.

so i went ahead and did it! i got some nulon-branded throttle body/ carby cleaner with a little straw, taped the straw to the nozzle so that it didnt get sucked in anywhere, and got to!

so here's how it all went down in scotty town:

1. the 90 degree rubber hose to the top left of the pic, that leads into the egr flap and subsequently the manifold- i unclipped that, giving me access to the mouth of the egr/ manifold:





2. turned the engine on, letting it idle. i had no idea what anything was supposed to sound like, or what was going to happen- i know that there was the potential to stall, but i also didnt know if there was the possibility of runaway. so i had the window down, ready to turn the key off if i heard the engine start to rev like crazy. funny thing is, i dont even know if turning the car off will prevent runaway once it's started, lol!

3. upon removing the 90 degree hose, i had decent access to the mouth, enough to squeeze in there and hold the can at a decent angle [not upside down or anything], allowing the can to spray smoothly into the mouth:





4. sprayed the contents of the can into the egr/ manifold, in small increments, just to get a feel of what kind of sounds i was going to hear. engine sputtered at times, shook quite violently whenever i sprayed a larger amount continually, and at one point, the engine stopped, went POP!, shot a flame out of the metal intake/ egr mouth, and when i turned the key off immediately upon that happening, the egr flap mouth remained on fire!!!! i SH4T myself! blew it out easily enough, and started her up again.

i continued trying to get away with as-long-as-possible sprays, letting the engine sputter and shake, but being mindful not to repeat that incident.

5. once the can was empty [which took a while, as i was in no hurry- whole thing probably took about 20 mins], i let it idle for another minute, shut the engine off, re-attached the hose, and turned it back on to idle for another 5 minutes.

results!

BEFORE:





AFTER:







yay!

yet to take it for a spin and see how it goes....

P.S.- any criticism is welcome, as it's all a learning process, so i'll definitely take it on board. also, if anyone wants to tell me "what you did is nice and all, but it wouldnt have really removed any of the intake sludge, it just cleaned up the EGR flap a little.... you didnt really address anything/ clean anything substantial'', then i wont mind that either!

cheers guys!

[Buller_Scott]

update time guys

it could just be the placebo effect, which is something that i always manage to convince myself has taken place whenever i do stuff like back box delete, intercooler clean, pd160 intake trumpet, BMC air filter, and now this, however....

i took the car for a spin tonight, circled the block literally around 8-9 times just warming it up [i was wary that something might blow up, and i wanted to be close to home, and on flat ground, should i have to wheel it back home], then i took it on the freeway.

before getting on the freeway, the exhaust odour was REALLY REALLY strong- it was similar in scent to the throttle body/ carby cleaner. was i worried? a little, but i figured that it'll burn off once i've given it the beans a couple times. and it did. by the time i got back home, 45 mins later, the odour was nil.

didnt hammer it going onto the freeway as the car wasnt sufficiently warm, but once it was, i felt there was a difference.

once again, it could be the placebo effect, but i honestly felt as though i was being pinned back in my seat a little harder when in second and third gears.

would i do it again? hell yes! im gonna do it every oil change from now on! [unless, of course, someone on here says that it'd be a bad idea and that the engine can only tolerate that kind of manifold cleaning once every 50,000kms or whatever].

in fact, as you can see, there's still a bit of build up deeper in the manifold in the ''after'' shots. im thinking of getting some more cleaner, and doing it again some time soon, to try to get rid of that little bit [if i can]. if it's not detrimental to the motor, well, i've got the time and the patience to do it. it can only be a good thing [i hope!].

cheers,

scotty.

[Greg Roles]

Great work mate, and I'd agree to keep doing it till it looks clean all the way - every service would be a great idea. Good idea to do it slowly, just as you have, for putting all the junk through your engine in one go may end up floating a valve or something, which would be a bad thing. Unlikely, but still doing as you did is exactly what I'd do in your shoes.

You really are a tinkerer now !!

[Buller_Scott]

thanks cog! i think it's deffo back to the autobarns for another can of cleaner today- wouldnt mind just flushing all that crap.

p.s. i kinda panicked when the motor stopped, went pop, and spat that fire out of the manifold/egr mouth...

was that just the engine stalling? a misfire? or should i not ask? lol.

cheers!

[gldgti]

uuuurgh
i dont like it. THing is, even if you do clean some gunk out, your sending it thew wrong way. anything you loosen is being sucked in to the engine and could get stuck anywhere - between the valves and valve seats, for instance, not o mention particles inpacting with the turbine on the way out.

i dont like it.

[Buller_Scott]

uuuurgh
i dont like it. THing is, even if you do clean some gunk out, your sending it thew wrong way. anything you loosen is being sucked in to the engine and could get stuck anywhere - between the valves and valve seats, for instance, not o mention particles inpacting with the turbine on the way out.

i dont like it.

hmmmm. thanks for bringing that to my attention! i kinda figured that if there was sludge in the manifold, getting the turbo hot hot hot would be spitting that stuff in the intake, into the engine anyway.... but then, that's my noob side guessing...

the only other way, as i see it, is to take the manifold off and do it.... but i'd presume that i need a new manifold gasket for that, is that right?

i'd love to take the mani off and clean it really well, soak it overnight or whatever, but im short on the seemingly huge list of tools needed to do it right

i think its time for me to get under the car, take the skid plate off, and have a gooooooooooooood look around

[gldgti]

good plan.

Because you are saying you are a big ole noob at all this, let me detail what i said above -

The turbocharger has 2 separate radial fans - one on the intake (the comressor); and one on the exhaust (the turbine). The exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) adds exhaust from the exhaust manifold (pre tubine, just outside of the head) through an external pipe and through a valve into the inlet, just before the inlet manifold. As you well know, the inlet tract is covered (on the inside) with a thin film of oil from the CCV system (Crank Case Ventilation). This means that when some exhaust gasses are piped through the EGR system into the inlet manifold, the soot will attach to the film of oil, and over a period of time, a thick buildup of gunk will grow, as layers of oil and soot are deposited alternately.

I have cleaned 2 VW diesel intake manifolds of EGR crud. In both cases, the buildup was anywhere from 1-4mm thick, depending on the position inside the manifold. The danger, when the buildup is very thick, is that if you attempt to remove it using a light solvent, clumps of gunk may fall off in reasonably sized pieces (perhaps the size of a match head is the kind of thing im talking about).
This poses a couple of potential problems -

1) usually, the clearances in a VW diesel mean that if a valve does not completely close during the cycle, the piston will 'kiss' it.
2) red hot turbine wheels of turbochargers (and i'm talking literally red hod too) are prone to impact damage from large objects, particularly considering the speed with which the turine blade can spin (if the turbocharger is doing 100,000 rpm (about 60% full load/full revs likley) then it the tips could be doing 160m/s (about 560km/h)).

Therefore, in my opinion, I would be hesitant to try and clean the inlet manifold in the manner that you did - better to remove it and clean it that way.

[gtimk5]

I specifically mentioned the actual deisel cleaner from Wynns last year but noone took any notice of my post. I would only use the deisel intake cleaner myself on my msany customers TDI's, Thats just me...
I have seen pics of local Mitsubishi, Ford and Mazda extremely late deisels where the inlet maniflod diameter has shrunk down to approx 5 m/m due to gunk. These brands are experiencing engine failures and this is why the deisel inlet cleaner was formulated. (with great results)
The cans are only small, probably about 125 ml and the hose with the very fine 3 spray holes is about 400 m/m long so as to right in there.
When roadtesting out of my workshop there is a bit of rubbish out of the tailpipes for about 300 mtrs.
I have customers asking me what the heck I have done to their cars as the difference is immediately noticeable. Low down torque is very improved.
Greg, the local dealer is doing this every service these days.

[gldgti]

I specifically mentioned the actual deisel cleaner from Wynns last year but noone took any notice of my post. I would only use the deisel intake cleaner myself on my msany customers TDI's, Thats just me...
I have seen pics of local Mitsubishi, Ford and Mazda extremely late deisels where the inlet maniflod diameter has shrunk down to approx 5 m/m due to gunk. These brands are experiencing engine failures and this is why the deisel inlet cleaner was formulated. (with great results)
The cans are only small, probably about 125 ml and the hose with the very fine 3 spray holes is about 400 m/m long so as to right in there.
When roadtesting out of my workshop there is a bit of rubbish out of the tailpipes for about 300 mtrs.
I have customers asking me what the heck I have done to their cars as the difference is immediately noticeable. Low down torque is very improved.
Greg, the local dealer is doing this every service these days.

Seems like a good option, and unsurprising that this has come about (a regular service thing). I am just highlighting the danger of loosening a large buildup of crud that has previously not been touched. If you were to clean it out every oil change i cant see there being much there to clean out in the first place, hence no risk of chunks causing problems.

[Jarred]

From the pic's I'd say it's not 100% clean, like it still looks a bit gunky.

If I was spraying stuff through my engine, I'd go with trust worthy advice, down to the letter. Ie go find the product Andrew used (specifically) And try that. He is the master mechanic after all!

[gtimk5]

Thanks Jarred, I do "play" with these things daily!!

[Buller_Scott]

hey guys hows it going?

first of all, andrew, let me just say that i really didnt want it to look like i was going against your sound advice, nor anyone else's good advice. i didnt want it to come off like i was dismissing anyone's expertise in any way- bottom line is, i'll be looking to you guys in the future when i start to get my hands dirtier.

there were a number of elements to this OP: first, my local autobarn AND repco DIDNT have that product in stock. i looked around, and the nulon option seemed like the best alternative, when looking at off-the-shelf options for throttle body cleaners.

additionally, GLD, i agree with you- pulling the manifold off would no doubt be the best option, however unfortunately, i dont have the tools nor the protection to really do it as safely as i'd like... believe it or not, any under-the-hood work that i've done, has been backed up against the curb of the flattest part of my side street, with a couple of small orange cones around the outside of the car, to warn other motorists driving down my street [it IS a side street, not a busy one], and having to pick times when both the weather is good, and there is enough light. given the multitude of the task of pulling the manifold, this seemed like a decent compromise.

thanks to everyone for their contributions, and feel free to critique me more- it can only be educational for me.

i didnt mean to dismiss anyone's experience and knowledge at all. im happy with the results, and from what pictures i have seen on line, my intake is pretty clean when compared with other properly clogged manifolds:





these two pics make my intake look not-too-bad now, so i'll leave it at that for the mean time, and next time i clean it, it'll be coming off- the ''proper'' way.

cheers!

[gldgti]

I just dont think cleaning out all that stuff so it gets pumped through the engine is a good idea, nomatter how good the cleaning agent is.

[gtimk5]

Hey Scott!!
I was never offended at all, pleased to see that intake cleaner did the job mate. Have you noticed an improvement in the lower rev range?
Good on you for getting in and getting dirty.
The pics you show are very similar to some of the many I have seen, absolutely disgusting and yes, if it was that bad, it would be a head off job for me. The back of the inlet valves get even more buildup!! True!! The point is to stop that amount of buildup in the first place, by nipping it in the bud early it shouldnt really get crud through the turbo. VW's are not as prone it seems as some of the Rodeos, Mitsubishis, and some Ford deisels, wotever model that is...
I think the Wynns producy may only be available to workshops but I would happily supply members here with the special hose and kit.
Once again, good on you and Preeny for having a go!
Andrew

[Von Richthofen]

Hi Guys,

Been reading this thread with some interest.

Had a search on line for the Wynn product & came up with the pdf file at the link below. It's a good read with quite a bit of detailed instruction.

Regards.

http://www.wynns.net/product_files/Exhaust%20Gas%20Recirculation%203%2023379%20%20High%20Pressure%203%2012193%20PIS.pdf