Starting trouble

[JustMark]

Hi all.

Im having trouble starting my GF's 1980 GLD. IT broke down while she was driving it and she had it towed home. The RACV said it might be the starter motor so i swapped that out for a known working one. and that didnt fix the problem. When i turn it over it clicks but does not turn over. Apparently he checked the battery and it was holding 12V. Just wanted to know if there are any other leads as what it might be.

Thanks in advance.

Mark

[gregozedobe]

Does the starter incorporate the solenoid as well ? If it is separate then the solenoid could be RS.

It might be worth checking the voltage at the starter motor and solenoid (rather than at the battery). If there is a problem with power and/or earth leads and/or connections the voltage might seem OK at the battery but be too low at the starter.

Another possiblity is a problem with the teeth (or meshing/throw) on the flywheel.

If you have any doubts about the battery at all iIt is worth trying with a known good one (even if it doesn't actually fit properly).

[Transporter]

Turn the headlights on while you're starting if they go off check the cables from the battery the thick ones if they're not getting too hot while cranking.

My bet is that it is a battery, but check the cables first make sure you've got a good connection and no corrosion around battery terminals.

[Greg Roles]

I second Gregoz's solenoid idea, I've had the clicking, dodgey solenoid problem on my first car, you had to hit the solenoid each time with the steering lock before starting it!

[Jmac]

Check your earth cable mate, get an old set of jump leads and connect to the neg of the batt and the engine block then try it.
cheers
Jmac

[sparkie]

What Jmac said. The earth lead from the battery goes down the right hand side of the engine bay, as you are looking from the front, and is bolted to the body, then the same lead runs over an engine mounting (from memory) and is bolted onto the engine. Both these places are dirt and rust prone, so a good clean-up well worht the trouble. If you think it is sus, replace it with a new one from your local auto parts (cheaper than OE) - and you can get a larger csa cable. On my GLD the earth lead gets really hot - but the car starts OK, it's on my to do list. When it was not starting very well I doubled up the cable as Kmac suggests and it improved heaps. Good Luck

[JustMark]

Ok Thanks for all the suggestions here is what i have done with no sucess

1. replaced the starter. The selniod is incorporated with it so it was changed ovr with the original.
2. Full charged the battery.
3. Changed the postive cable to the starter with a new thicker one. I wanted to change the negitive one but unsure of how important it is to have it connnected to the chassis as well as the engine. i could not see any that doubled up like the orignial on the golf.
4. Cleaned up all the connnections so that they were shiny and bright.
5. hooked up a jumper cable from the negitive to the engine whilst trying to start.

When i got my GF to turn it over both cables got extremely hot with a little bit of burning plastic smell. Is there something that i have missed. When it is bright again tomorrow i will hook up the merc battery to try to kick it over....

Thanks again for all the suggestions.

Looks like my girlfriend will have to push bike it to school again.

[Transporter]

Can you turn the engine over with the socket on the crankshaft pulley?
If yes, I would be replacing the battery.

[gregozedobe]

When i got my GF to turn it over both cables got extremely hot with a little bit of burning plastic smell.

Can you turn the engine over with the socket on the crankshaft pulley?
If yes, I would be replacing the battery.

OK, I'm going to go back and ask the question we should have asked at the start.

What exactly were the original symptoms when it first "broke down while she was driving it" ?

If the engine overheated drastically or was running without oil or made a horrible noise it might have seized or jammed internally. If a cambelt broke and the valves hit the pistons there will be a similar result. In any of these scenarios, no amount of fiddling with starter motors and/or batteries and leads will rescusitate her poor beastie.

As Transporter is hinting, if the engine won't turn over then that is where the problem lies (hint, putting a manual in top gear and rocking it back and forth may turn the engine over enough to see if it is stuck or not).

The fact that the cables to the starter got very hot suggests to me that the battery is probably capable of delivering enough current, but either the engine won't turn over or the starter is jammed/cactus.

Please keep us informed of developments.

[gldgti]

ohhh boy.

mate, if the car stopped while running, then i would say its one of the following

> electrical problem - namely something wrong with current track 15 - thats ignition on. this poweres the stop solenoid. if no power there, nomatter how much you crank, tow or jump the car, it wont start. no fuel. there must be 12V to the stop solenoid on the injector pump when ignition is on - has this wire broken?

>how fast does it crank over? it should be really fast now that you've re-vamped the starter and cables. if its slow, you might have a timing problem.

>pull the valve cover off and the timing belt cover. take out the timing plug from the bellhousing and line up the crank at TDC. check that the slot in the end of the camshaft is lined up exactly with the top deck of the head. check that the small hole in the injector pump front sproket is lined up with the hole in hte pump mounting bracket. if any of these are out, your timing is out.

>check the oil. make sure there is only oil in it, and not water etc.

>check that the fuel is getting through - you may have a blocket filter (will stop you while driving) OR you have an air leak that the pump cannot overcome. check all the fuel lines between the metal lines and the pump - both supply and return. if htey are suspect, replace with new and use new hoseclamps.

i would NEVER trust what some roadside assist mechanic has to say about an old vw diesel - they NEVER know what the hell they're looking at. my sisters GLD wouldnt start one day, and i had the nrma guy passed to me on hte phone (my sis called me bacuse i know about the car) and he had no idea what so ever. hopeless git. all it needed was a good fast crank (or a tow start) because it seemed not to be glowing properly. i could tell that from what my sister described to me over the phone - but HE had them chasing fuel filters and starter motors too. next time my sis came up, we changed the glo plugs and now it starts perfectly, every time.

[Transporter]

Yeah, many things can bring the engine to the stop, especially the diesel engine. Check everything as gldgti suggested first, because you need to find out what stopped the engine as well.

Regarding the battery, the starter motor clicks but fail to turn with the engine; that could mean:

Battery doesn't have enough energy (capacity)
Startermotor draws excessive current (worn out bushes)
Solenoid on startermotor (as others suggested)
High resistance somewhere (corrosion, loose wire, bad contacts)
Seized or otherwise dammaged engine. (even lost timing as gldgti said will put strain on a weak battery that would normaly start the engine)

To eliminate battery/startermotor for good do the following.
(it shouldn't take more than 10 minutes)

Check the voltage drop on the battery posts, both positive and negative terminals with any cheap digital voltmeter (DVM), while you're starting check battery terminals voltage, if it goes too much bellow 8V you will have trouble to start it even if it would be cranking with the engine. If the voltage is above 10V than:

Select 2V scale and place + DVM probe on battery post and negative probe at battery terminal voltage drop should be no more than 0.3V (300mV). Check all connections - posts to cable - cable to earth point – to chassis.
Turn the high beams, if there is no voltage drop, than the main battery circuit is “ok”.

[JustMark]

My Gf said that it started alright and when she drove to school she said that the car wanted to take off quicker as it was warming up. Then it settled down to normal once it was warm. It started again when she drove it home with nothing unusual. Then she stopped off to pick something up and it wouldnt start again. The RACV came out and said it was holding 12v but couldnt started and and suggested the starter motor.

She got it towed home and i tried everything already mentioned. as well as.
5. tried to push start it. (wont do that again with a high compression engine.)
6. I also did what was suggested and put it into 4th and rocked about a foot with no luck.
7. hooked up my mercedes 300D battery.
8. checked the water and oil levels and they were fine with no trace of water in the il or vice verser.


I do believe that i could be due for a timing belt change. But i checked that to and it seems to be intact. Im really stuck for ideas. Is there anything else anyone can think of before i get it towed to a professional.

Thanks in advance.

mark

[Transporter]

Are you able to turn with engine when you put socket on engine pulley?
If yes replace the battery, don't hook the battery with cables it is not good enough because if the battery is faulty it would put the load on the new one. Remove it out of the car and use the battery from MB300D, if it starts MB it should start Golf. Just make sure your battery connections are OK.

[Jmac]

So i assume you have checked the earth cable???? Tried the jump lead between the batt and engine????? Havent read that , maybe missed it.
Jmac

[gldgti]

My Gf said that it started alright and when she drove to school she said that the car wanted to take off quicker as it was warming up. Then it settled down to normal once it was warm. It started again when she drove it home with nothing unusual. Then she stopped off to pick something up and it wouldnt start again. The RACV came out and said it was holding 12v but couldnt started and and suggested the starter motor.

She got it towed home and i tried everything already mentioned. as well as.
5. tried to push start it. (wont do that again with a high compression engine.)
6. I also did what was suggested and put it into 4th and rocked about a foot with no luck.
7. hooked up my mercedes 300D battery.
8. checked the water and oil levels and they were fine with no trace of water in the il or vice verser.


I do believe that i could be due for a timing belt change. But i checked that to and it seems to be intact. Im really stuck for ideas. Is there anything else anyone can think of before i get it towed to a professional.

Thanks in advance.

mark

mate, i have written you up a very comprehensive list of things to look for, and none of it too hard. if hte timing belt stuff looks ok, then check that you have the 12V to the INJECTOR PUMP solenoid. its at the back of the injector pump, just above where the fuel lines come out. its a single tab (earths though the engine). should be a single wire running to it. stich a voltmeter on there and check it reads 12V with key on. if not, thats your problem.

My Gf said that it started alright and when she drove to school she said that the car wanted to take off quicker as it was warming up. Then it settled down to normal once it was warm.

likewise - sounds as though the car has been showing intermittent power - as you described - which says to me air in hte fuel lines. At LEAST replace the line from the filter to the injector pump. if possible change it for some clear plastic line so you can see if air is being sucked into the pump. this can be had at bunnings for cheap. (PVC hose, 6mm).