Hydrogen Injection

[DSGMAn]

Hi all,

My brother is currently running his XR6 Ute on a hydrogren unit that pumps out 500ml of H2 gas every 45 seconds - he has dropped his fuel consumption from 13l/100km to approx 6.8l/100km using his system. I asked him about running it in my TDI Golf - according to his research.....and a test mule Turbo Diesel Hilux they're running, the TDI would greatly benefit from this as it cleans up the engine, engine oil - basically the whole system because of the absence of carbon from the Hydrogen. Not only that, the power/torque gains would be quite significant - As witnessed by the Hilux producing much more torque/power.

Has anyone heard of a TDI running a Hydrogen injection system before? I obviously know this would void my warranty - which is why ill wait another 18months then it runs out before trying.

[gldgti]

i dont see how it would hurt anything.

i dont really see how you could achieve much my using just 500ml (as in half a litre of gas at atmospheric pressure right?) in your engine every 45seconds when the volumetric throughput of the engine is so much higher (several orders of magnitude)

i wont tell you that your wrong though. theres no reason not to use hydrogen in a diesel engine... in fact, it works similarly to diesel fuel in that the fuel metering governs engine performance, not air metering as in a petrol (otto) engine.

lets here more about this mysterious hydrogen injection thingamabob. if your brothers claims are true (i'm not going to call anyone a liar) then something has changed somewhere along the line.

[DSGMAn]

Yeah the details are still very sketchy to me also - I know and claim to know nothing about said figures/claims.....this is only what i've been told is the current outcome.

Ill definantly keep you guys informed of if/when i hook this up to my Golf. Although it would be nice to have economy figures of 4l/100 from the TDI...as a rough guesstimate.

I had a wiff of the exhaust while his XR6 was idling.....smelt much 'nicer' than my old man's similar Falcon 4.0....must be running cleaner with H2 hooked up.

[cetane]

Storage? Decreased volume of diesel injected?

I suppose the H2 is stored under compression in a cast metal cylinder? If so, there must be a pressure regulator and a "gas on demand" system similar to Impco LPG systems. (Only guessing!) Or is the gas stored in a metal hydride? I also suppose that the increased thermal efficiency of the inducted air containing a H2 charge will mean lesser throttle openings and so less diesel needed to be burned.

This is really interesting stuff and gives a new meaning to "hybrid" and "dual fuel". Perhaps the future of the ICE is more certain with H2 injection rather than H2 fuel cell powered vehicles!

[gregozedobe]

DSGMan, exactly how has your brother calculated his "new" fuel consumption ? I ask because you said "approx 6.8l/100km" which sounds like it might be based on the fuel gauge readings which can give very inaccurate figures. My transporter seems to be extremely frugal for the first 1/8 of the tank, but very thirsty for the last 1/4 of the tank.

The only reliable way is to fill the tank each time and record the distance travelled, then average consumption over several fills.

Sounds interesting, nevertheless, so please keep us informed.

[250 downunder]

I suppose the H2 is stored under compression in a cast metal cylinder? If so, there must be a pressure regulator and a "gas on demand" system similar to Impco LPG systems. (Only guessing!) Or is the gas stored in a metal hydride? I also suppose that the increased thermal efficiency of the inducted air containing a H2 charge will mean lesser throttle openings and so less diesel needed to be burned.

This is really interesting stuff and gives a new meaning to "hybrid" and "dual fuel". Perhaps the future of the ICE is more certain with H2 injection rather than H2 fuel cell powered vehicles!

Most hydrogen systems use a simple electrolytic cell fitted in the vehicle to produce the gas [Brown's gas]. 12volts across stainless steel anode and cathode with alkaline water as the electrolite.

[DSGMAn]

The way the H2 is being produced is through a patented 'cell' setup all contained in stainless steel rig - quite small and compact, which through the use of 2 x 2l distilled H2O resevoirs, through electrolysis produces the H2 on the fly.....yes, tried and tested method, although my brother has managed to come up with his cells that produce more H2 than most - making it viable to run on.

His fuel economy testing was done by filling up multiple tanks and calculating the distance driven and fuel consumed. A little rough at the development stage, but he plans to hook up sensors attached to a inboard lappy in a couple of weeks to track exact consumption figures and H2 metering, burn....etc.

I love the idea of greater economy from the TDI given the price of Diesel and the way the price of it is headed....i.e Europe. The extra power/torque can't hurt either.

Over the coming weeks I'll pick my brother's brain some more for some more accurate findings and figures.

I'm excited

[cetane]

Me too!

I'm excited

Me too!
Is your brother also injecting the O2 derived from the electrolysis of water? On-board splitting of H2O needs an energy source. Is this provided directly from the charging system? If so, what is its power consumption and how does this affect fuel consumption/performance? The reason I mentioned pressurised H2 stored in cylinders is that it can be generated externally by solar power thus being more sustainable.

[motk]

It's all crap, I'm afraid - http://www.fuelsaving.info/hydrogen.htm for some basic details, but you really can't beat the laws of physics here. You are always going to use more energy electrolysing water to produce so called "Brown's Gas" (no, there's no such thing as HHO) than you will gain by burning it. No, it does not increase efficiency of fuel burn, or anything similar. To be frank, it's a con. Any anecdotes to the contrary are just that, anecdotes (the plural of anecdote is not data!) and are a classic example of confirmation bias.

Pump up your tires and use less right foot! Cheaper, easier, actually works.

[motk]

And frankly, http://www.cracked.com/article_16484...ly-trying.html should be the last word on the matter

[VW Convert]

It's all crap, I'm afraid - http://www.fuelsaving.info/hydrogen.htm for some basic details, but you really can't beat the laws of physics here. You are always going to use more energy electrolysing water to produce so called "Brown's Gas" (no, there's no such thing as HHO) than you will gain by burning it. No, it does not increase efficiency of fuel burn, or anything similar. To be frank, it's a con. Any anecdotes to the contrary are just that, anecdotes (the plural of anecdote is not data!) and are a classic example of confirmation bias.

Pump up your tires and use less right foot! Cheaper, easier, actually works.

That's a very interesting website, lots of things explained in terms that anybody can understand by someone who has experience and qualifications.

Cheers

George

[DSGMAn]

Me too!
Is your brother also injecting the O2 derived from the electrolysis of water? On-board splitting of H2O needs an energy source. Is this provided directly from the charging system? If so, what is its power consumption and how does this affect fuel consumption/performance? The reason I mentioned pressurised H2 stored in cylinders is that it can be generated externally by solar power thus being more sustainable.

I heard the draw is somewhere around 10amps - runs off the alternator. As soon as he turned the key on the ignition the cells started electrolysing.

[DSGMAn]

It's all crap, I'm afraid - http://www.fuelsaving.info/hydrogen.htm for some basic details, but you really can't beat the laws of physics here. You are always going to use more energy electrolysing water to produce so called "Brown's Gas" (no, there's no such thing as HHO) than you will gain by burning it. No, it does not increase efficiency of fuel burn, or anything similar. To be frank, it's a con. Any anecdotes to the contrary are just that, anecdotes (the plural of anecdote is not data!) and are a classic example of confirmation bias.

Pump up your tires and use less right foot! Cheaper, easier, actually works.

I don't think anyone is making claims of perpetual motion here.....but there are ways to increase overall efficiency - it's tried and proven through LPG injection also.

Free energy def not - but increased burn efficiency is a given. It's being widely used throughout Nth America in some trucking fleets http://www.chechfi.ca/product_ltseries.htm- I doubt these guys would plunk down 14k a pop for the truck units if there was not some kind of return. The reading of one website does not close the book on H2 Injection. As for the other website (in your 2nd post)- it looks like a full on scam....if people believe that crap, then they have problems . It doesn't really have any bearing on legit companies producing quality H2 Units.

[Greg Roles]

Well having recently watched "who killed the electric car" on dvd, it does seem strange that all the auto manufacturers have ditched the obviously workable electric concept for the "long way off" Hydrogen fuel cell idea.

Their angle was all about inclome from oil, and it would appear Hydrogen technology is a nice idea to stall things while the price of oil continues to rise.

A great watch, and one that makes me want to run bio diesel more than ever.

Hmm, Bio and LPG, now that's interesting...

[250 downunder]

Well having recently watched "who killed the electric car" on dvd, it does seem strange that all the auto manufacturers have ditched the obviously workable electric concept for the "long way off" Hydrogen fuel cell idea.

Their angle was all about inclome from oil, and it would appear Hydrogen technology is a nice idea to stall things while the price of oil continues to rise.

A great watch, and one that makes me want to run bio diesel more than ever.

Hmm, Bio and LPG, now that's interesting...

So what's stopping you? Go for it. You can come & spy on my plant and learn from my mistakes. I hate those oil companies so much since I started making Bio that I cry when I have to go and buy petrol for the mower! I think I will have to find a small diesel suitable for a mower.