Front camber advice

[Sirocco20348]

Hey vwwatercoolers,

I have a mk4 golf and will be completing the TT spindle, control arm swap within the next few weeks.

I am trying to work out what is an acceptable amount of front camber for a daily drive that will see once a month sprint session.

Suspension: Bilstein HD, Shine springs (300f/200r)
Tyres: 205/55/16 Pilot Sport 4.
Sway Bars: No front sway, 24mm Whiteline rear set to maximum.
Current front camber: approx 0 deg
Current rear camber: approx 1deg25 both sides. Refer to alignment sheet.

I have read that if the front camber is less than the rear it promotes understeer. Likewise if the front camber is greater than the rear it promotes oversteer.

I am generally confused from the plethora of articles I have read. With variables such as no front sway I'm not sure if 1.5-2deg camber will cause my car to heavily oversteer.

Any advice is welcome. I am currently thinking 1.5' camber.

[sambb]

I've run everywhere from 2/1/4 down to 1.5 degrees neg. You will get accelerated wear doing street km's on the inside of the fronts with anything over 1.5. If your tyres are symetrics you can just get them taken off the rims when they are getting down and swap your left tyres to the right and vice versa to get a fresh tread down on the inside. That'll buy you more street km's.
On the track a general rule of thumb is the more castor you have the less camber you'll need. You've got a good amount of caster there so you could get away with 1.75 degrees eg as a street/track compromise. I wouldn't choose your camber based on will I/will I not oversteer in mind. Your choice to remove the front bar and run the rear with 24mm will be the main bearing on that. I'd still personally still run a soft front bar. I'll try to dig out some pics of a Polo guy who was photographed through the same corner with/without the front bar connected and the front roll without was pretty dramatic. What I've found is when the car starts to lift the inside rear (which is what you want if you have a open diff) if the front opposite corner cant support the load (which it will find it harder to do with no bar) then it can start to really plough. eg on smooth flat tracks when running my front bar on hard I have to be more careful not to understeer on corner entry, but if I get that right it'll three wheels nicely through the apex and be quicker overall. On soft the front end will tip into corners with more reassurance and get the power down harder on exit, but its easier to overcook it at the apex. At proper tight hilllimbs ill always run it on soft though.

[GeorgeMK1]

I used to run -3.5 on the front of my race CRX and that felt great. On a daily with occasional tracks, I would do -2 with mild toe to help with tyre wear. As mentioned above, symmetrical tyres will help in wear. I think at minimum you would want -1.5 camber

[Sirocco20348]

I've run everywhere from 2/1/4 down to 1.5 degrees neg. You will get accelerated wear doing street km's on the inside of the fronts with anything over 1.5. If your tyres are symetrics you can just get them taken off the rims when they are getting down and swap your left tyres to the right and vice versa to get a fresh tread down on the inside. That'll buy you more street km's.
On the track a general rule of thumb is the more castor you have the less camber you'll need. You've got a good amount of caster there so you could get away with 1.75 degrees eg as a street/track compromise. I wouldn't choose your camber based on will I/will I not oversteer in mind. Your choice to remove the front bar and run the rear with 24mm will be the main bearing on that. I'd still personally still run a soft front bar. I'll try to dig out some pics of a Polo guy who was photographed through the same corner with/without the front bar connected and the front roll without was pretty dramatic. What I've found is when the car starts to lift the inside rear (which is what you want if you have a open diff) if the front opposite corner cant support the load (which it will find it harder to do with no bar) then it can start to really plough. eg on smooth flat tracks when running my front bar on hard I have to be more careful not to understeer on corner entry, but if I get that right it'll three wheels nicely through the apex and be quicker overall. On soft the front end will tip into corners with more reassurance and get the power down harder on exit, but its easier to overcook it at the apex. At proper tight hilllimbs ill always run it on soft though.

Thanks for the reply.

How did the camber differences feel with high speed cornering?

My choice to remove the front bar was a forced one, as I have no way of mounting either the mk4 or TT sway due to the difference in parts. I would have to upgrade my front struts to TT ones to attach the sway bar.

The polo guy you mention, had he taken any measures to correct the roll centre before he removed the sway?

I'm following the advice of srsvw from vwvortex. He advercates no fsb when considerable uprated springs are used and respecting the roll centre.

I've been driving without the fsb for a few weeks now and it actually drives fairly well. I haven't been out to the track thou. The front does feel more 'delayed' when quick turning without the sway bar, but I am finding on tight off camber corners my wheels are finding the road, where as before I would start to spin the inside wheel.

[Sirocco20348]

I used to run -3.5 on the front of my race CRX and that felt great. On a daily with occasional tracks, I would do -2 with mild toe to help with tyre wear. As mentioned above, symmetrical tyres will help in wear. I think at minimum you would want -1.5 camber

Hey George, -3.5 would look intense [emoji16] any pictures?

You mention mild toe to help with tire wear. Wears considered mild? And Negative or positive?

Yeh it looks like the general consensus is 1.5 to 2 deg.

[GeorgeMK1]

My choice to remove the front bar was a forced one, as I have no way of mounting either the mk4 or TT sway due to the difference in parts. I would have to upgrade my front struts to TT ones to attach the sway bar.

The polo guy you mention, had he taken any measures to correct the roll centre before he removed the sway?

I've been driving without the fsb for a few weeks now and it actually drives fairly well. I haven't been out to the track thou. The front does feel more 'delayed' when quick turning without the sway bar, but I am finding on tight off camber corners my wheels are finding the road, where as before I would start to spin the inside wheel.

On a FWD car it is better to always update rear sway bar before front, therefore a lot of FWD guys tend to remove the front sway bar until they can afford to upgrade both at the same time, so that its done in proportion. As a given rule, the rear would always be the bigger upgrade - ie; if upgrading only a few mm in size front and rear, the rear should always be the largest gain in proportion to your suspension of course.

You also mention you aren't able to run a sway bar? Is that because the drop links do not work? I am currently running air ride in my MK6 and with the new lower suspension, the old drop links were too long for my shortened suspension. If that is your same issue, the solution is simple. Lots of folks in the U.S use rose joints to make a custom shortened end link, its actually really strong when you use the proper material.

Hey George, -3.5 would look intense [emoji16] any pictures?

You mention mild toe to help with tire wear. Wears considered mild? And Negative or positive?

Yeh it looks like the general consensus is 1.5 to 2 deg.

Hey bud, no, no pictures with me unfortunately
I had +1 toe on the CRX to help compensate for the large camber. I'd say +0.5 toe would be not a bad setting. Ofcourse, different cars = different settings. Its really a continued trial and error

[Sirocco20348]

On a FWD car it is better to always update rear sway bar before front, therefore a lot of FWD guys tend to remove the front sway bar until they can afford to upgrade both at the same time, so that its done in proportion. As a given rule, the rear would always be the bigger upgrade - ie; if upgrading only a few mm in size front and rear, the rear should always be the largest gain in proportion to your suspension of course.

The mk4 GTI comes with a 21mm fsb and nothing on the rear. **** Shine says that the removal of the front sway is 'a good experient' if front springs are 300lbs or greater. He does say to warm up the rear tires thou because it's very prone to oversteer. I've emailed the company I ordered my springs from to get the exact spring rates. I could be wrong that they are 300/200.

If I'm running a 24mm on the rear currently, what is considered a smaller realistic option on the front. I think the stock TT is 20mm. I wonder if I could get the tabs welded onto my struts to fit the sway bar...

You also mention you aren't able to run a sway bar?

The mk4 attaches the sway bar end links to the control arms where as the TT connects the sway bar to the front struts. I don't have the tabs on my struts to connect the sway.

Its really a continued trial and error

I think this is what is its all about..

[GeorgeMK1]

I think ideally for a pretty good street setup, the standard front sway bar with an oversized rear sway bar would be a great starting point. From there you would be able to find out what you are happy with and how it handles to your style of driving.

In regards to your end link issue, I now know what you mean. Ideally, welding would be the best idea as that is how it is from factory. HOWEVER, welding a strut full of fluid/gas is never a good idea. I have another solution for you - Its a company called Dorbitz Designs. He basically makes brackets for struts that come with no endlink support. MK6 air struts from bilstein have has no front sway bar tab like my OEM struts do, and his kit allows me to use end links to re-attach the sway bar.
Its like a clamp that goes around the strut. Have a google, I'm almost certain he makes MK4 brackets too. Hope this helps
George

[sambb]

Looks like you might be able to get out of trouble regarding getting endlinks sorted. I know from some of the british hillclimb sites where small hatches are very popular that guys do run sans FARB but they are on 450+ front springs and like you found they are doing it to maximise traction under power when going uphill in a FWD which is an inherent drama. I know from a theory and personal experience at hillclimbs/sprintst point of view that anti roll bars really help with rapid changes of direction - that delay you're feeling probably is the absence of the bar, but it may not matter if your on a track with wide sustained corners as opposed to chicanes and switchbacks.

[sambb]

Oh and without a doubt the more neg camber I have run, the better it has felt on the track. I run 205/50/15's and felt no loss of braking power at all either at 2/1/4 degrees neg. I think the recommendation to run a little toe in is a good one. The last thing you want if you are worried about oversteer (or the car is prone to it) is an overly responsive front end that might cause you to lift mid corner or take two bites when you're turning in. But having said that If no FARB has dulled the front down then a bit of toe out might get back some response - something you'll just have to experiment with. The guy I mentioned had a standard front geometry. He's Plautos on the 9N3 Polo forum but he's fallen victim to the photobucket thing and all his pics have been wiped. good luck.

[Sirocco20348]

Thanks for all the replies. I am actually going to put the whole swap on hold for the meantime.

The dorbritz clamps was a great find. I think the company has folded but other companies still fabricate such parts. They are just so expensive for what they are! Easily $200 landed. Plus they only fit 2 specific air struts.

For the meantime I'm going to reattach the end links for my current sway. I think the lack of fsb and it's delayed behaviour on my current springs is possibly dangerous in a quick swerve situation.

The cheapest solution at the moment is obviously to fit nothing. But otherwise it would be to find TT control arms with the nubs to fit the stock mk4 sway. See pic..

But the TT gear is just so superior, I might even consider replacing my front struts with the TT struts so I can run the TT sway bar. I just wish I thought of this when I first bought these struts.

[sambb]

all his pics had gone but I managed to find this one which is a pic of his car with the bar disconnected. It was pretty flat before that. 3 wheeling is great if the inside rear is skimming the deck but my car has done this in the past too and it puts too much loading on the outside front that goes well into positive camber if you're only starting with <2 degrees and/or don't have good camber gain in the hub (which polo's don't).

[Sirocco20348]

...all his pics had gone but I managed to find this one

Lol that is insane, Stock springs?

I found out that my front springs are 250lbs. Apparently higher spring weight needed to be requested.

I'll wait until I have a front sway bar situation sorted out.

[sambb]

Can't recall what springs he had, definitely not soft/stock. It steadily morphed into a very focused track car and he'd have had decent track worthy springs in there because I found this pic pretty late in his build thread. I remember thinking the same thing because the before and after was pretty dramatic. If you're going to stick with 250's I don't know if I'd run bar-less. Thing is, once the inside rear is off the deck it doesn't matter anymore if you have a standard rear beam, rear beam with 24mm bar or a zero torsion beam - it is then up to the fronts to be able to support all the roll force being put through the car. You can see he's got a lot of rear roll stiffness. I can tell you polo rear beams are floppy things and usually there's a lot of droop in the inside rear before it lifts off even with say a 20mm rear bar. His inside rear has barely dropped at all suggesting that he's got a lot of rear roll stiffness. The amount of compression on his outside front would be pretty extreme probably nearly peeling the tyre off the rim and for sure it'd hit the stops if he went over an undulation mid corner like that and then probably spit you off the road.

[Sirocco20348]

Can't recall what springs he had, definitely not soft/stock. It steadily morphed into a very focused track car and he'd have had decent track worthy springs in there because I found this pic pretty late in his build thread. I remember thinking the same thing because the before and after was pretty dramatic. If you're going to stick with 250's I don't know if I'd run bar-less. Thing is, once the inside rear is off the deck it doesn't matter anymore if you have a standard rear beam, rear beam with 24mm bar or a zero torsion beam - it is then up to the fronts to be able to support all the roll force being put through the car. You can see he's got a lot of rear roll stiffness. I can tell you polo rear beams are floppy things and usually there's a lot of droop in the inside rear before it lifts off even with say a 20mm rear bar. His inside rear has barely dropped at all suggesting that he's got a lot of rear roll stiffness. The amount of compression on his outside front would be pretty extreme probably nearly peeling the tyre off the rim and for sure it'd hit the stops if he went over an undulation mid corner like that and then probably spit you off the road.

Thanks, I really appreciate all your replies. After the above conversation, I am definitely going to retain a front sway bar.

I've had a number of people tell me that I can have the sway bar tabs welded onto the struts. I am assuming I have have to remove the gas strut from its housing before actually commencing the welding?

How Shocks Work - Access Bilstein strut internal bump stop (3/7), v2.30 - YouTube

Regardless I'll continue with the Audi TT transplant on the 12th with the tt sway bar installed without the end links and then I'll sort out the struts.

I'm looking forward to going back out to Morgan Park with the new setup.