KW COILOVERS vs FACTORY FITTED ACC

[dave_r]

We have just finished the development on the New KW DDC Coilovers that will integrate into VW Adaptive Chassis Control system. Testing it in Australia right now and first kits will be ETA October.

Got my attention here! Any ideas on estimated cost? Need another dev car

[Erik@EVL]

Hi Corey_R

In house secrets , so telling the exact detail can't happen just yet. It is definitely not magneto rheological though.

Hello, which adaptive damper technology does this use?
Hydraulic actuated, valve/solenoid actuated, magneto rheological?

[Erik@EVL]

We have done quite allot of testing already, but you never know. The more can always be merrier! Costs come out mid next week - this I can't post online due to forum rules. We did already some huge changes on the Australian RRP 2 months ago, so this will follow the same model.

Got my attention here! Any ideas on estimated cost? Need another dev car

[Erik@EVL]

Hi Kaanage,

Not the same. Exact rate used by the KW is actually not comparable to other suspensions as it has to match always the damper forces used. The KW is unique in that it separates both the high and low damper forces in both rebound and compression, with individual adjustment varies on each Variant type. So the Springs we use match these damper forces we can create and adjust on the KW. You would perhaps never use that spring on another brand as it may may not create the same damper forces, hence mismatch and poor performance.

Sorry for the blab mate, but you'll see there is more than spring rates to analyse if you want the correct performance/comfort/handling.

What are the spring rates like vs stock?

[Corey_R]

Aaah nuts! The Delphi MagnetoRide system is considered the best out there atm. Hence why it's used in the only American car which can go around corners (Corvette) and by Ferrari and Audi etc. I'm sure it'll still be great though.

[kaanage]

Sorry for the blab mate, but you'll see there is more than spring rates to analyse if you want the correct performance/comfort/handling.

I possibly understand more than you appreciate that I do.

Spring rates set the basis for suspension and the damping profile(s) needs to be tailored to suit rather than the other way around. Of course, the damping profile then alters the characteristics of the suspension within the bounds of the spring rate's performance envelope (you know all this but I'm stating it for others who may not).

I'm interested in knowing if the spring rate used in the KW replacements are higher or lower than stock.

[Erik@EVL]

Hi Kaanage,

For sure, don't mean to step on your toes here. There are many people with quite some experience and knowledge on the topic, this is respected. In the end we are both on the same page - the spring rate is only useful if you have the matching damper forces known.

KW work a little different to convention, its the adjustability in damping profile that allows sometimes a "softer" rate than OEM on say the V3. But this is not always the general rule as every chassis is different and the goal of every driver is different, hence theory needs testing to get it always right. This is why we just don't list out spring rates as it cannot give anyone the whole picture - because we (nor many other brands for that matter) will never publish the damper profiles . Driver/Owner feedback is for us the most important.

Cheers

Erik

I possibly understand more than you appreciate that I do.

Spring rates set the basis for suspension and the damping profile(s) needs to be tailored to suit rather than the other way around. Of course, the damping profile then alters the characteristics of the suspension within the bounds of the spring rate's performance envelope (you know all this but I'm stating it for others who may not).

I'm interested in knowing if the spring rate used in the KW replacements are higher or lower than stock.

[WhiteJames]

DCC - KW Comfort Coilover

The variant KW's are too firm for my country drives.
Some time in the future when the OEM dampers wear down, I could be looking for something DCC compatiable that has about the same to 10-15% higher spring/damper rates than the OEM Mark 6 DCC Golf GTI (About the same spring/damper rate as a Renault Megane RS250 that is firmer than the Golf MK6 GTI).

Will KW make a DCC compatible KW Comfort Coilover?

If so ... approximately how much?

Cheers
WJ

[Erik@EVL]

Hi WJ,

The VW DCC is exactly what we wanted to integrate with when it comes to the new KW DDC coilovers. The VW DCC has numerous sensors and inputs to "control" the dampers in realtime and when designing the new range we made it so that the "Comfort" setting was the same feel/ride as the KW Street Comfort, whereas the "Sport" setting was more for the feel/ride of the Clubsports. Not easy, but thus far all user/press testing has proved it is working well. Clubsports are for track times and Street comfort is for road manners/comfort.

Pricing will be finalised soon, first deliveries are in October.......

Just PM me your details so I can send info direct, I won't post pricing openly so to respect the forum rules.

cheers

Erik

The variant KW's are too firm for my country drives.
Some time in the future when the OEM dampers wear down, I could be looking for something DCC compatiable that has about the same to 10-15% higher spring/damper rates than the OEM Mark 6 DCC Golf GTI (About the same spring/damper rate as a Renault Megane RS250 that is firmer than the Golf MK6 GTI).

Will KW make a DCC compatible KW Comfort Coilover?

If so ... approximately how much?

Cheers
WJ

[kaanage]

The variant KW's are too firm for my country drives.
Some time in the future when the OEM dampers wear down, I could be looking for something DCC compatiable that has about the same to 10-15% higher spring/damper rates than the OEM Mark 6 DCC Golf GTI (About the same spring/damper rate as a Renault Megane RS250 that is firmer than the Golf MK6 GTI).

Thanks for this info WhiteJames

[Preen59]

The variant KW's are too firm for my country drives.
Some time in the future when the OEM dampers wear down, I could be looking for something DCC compatiable that has about the same to 10-15% higher spring/damper rates than the OEM Mark 6 DCC Golf GTI (About the same spring/damper rate as a Renault Megane RS250 that is firmer than the Golf MK6 GTI).

Will KW make a DCC compatible KW Comfort Coilover?

If so ... approximately how much?

Cheers
WJ

You may need to come for a drive in my Caddy..

[WhiteJames]

Most street focussed coilover use progressive rate springs. It is difficult to work out the spring rate as the rate changes throughout the spring compression. Add the complexity of separate low speed and high speed compression rates, and it all gets very complex. I found that in order to make the info palpable to forums readers, you can generalise spring rates, albeit with a very broad margin for error.

In very general terms, I found that my first Eibach ProKit/Koni FSD strut kit about 15% firmer in spring rate than the OE springs (mainly in the mid range spring rate due to progressive natural of springs, with less spring rate earlier in the compression cycle). Replacing that kit with the KW V3 coilover had springs rates about 35% above the OE MK5 Golf GTI spring rate. The KW V3 was good for bitumen freeway (not concrete) and short drives of less than 2 hours in duration. Otherwise, even on softest setting, I found them too firm for Sydney roadways, concrete and long distance hauls on country roadways (H&R bars didn’t help, but H&R sway bars were not so much an issue with the Eibach/FSD kit).

By turning the KW V3 down to their softest on compression and rebound setting, they did exhibit a slight tendency towards being underdamped. Of course, if you turn the KW V3 up to almost full hard, they are most like going to be overdamped and not let the spring do its job. The damping range has to fit the spring rate. With coilovers, this is about mid level damper settings. My concern with the new KW Dynamic (DCC) coilover is that the spring rate may be too high to begin with; regardless if the damping can be made comparable to OE Comfort mode on the DCC Mark 6 Golf GTI. Same deal with hard being like the Clubsport KW coilover. Clubsport coilovers, to my knowledge, are basically the KW V3 with a linear spring having a higher spring rate and camber top plates that are designed to work with semi-slicks on the road/track.

I’m finding it difficult to fathom how KW are able to have a coilover act like a standard DCC Golf GTI in Comfort & Normal mode in soft setting, and then act like a KW Clubsport coilover without any change in spring rate. The damper rate has to work around the spring rate. I’m interested to know where is that starting point for the KW Dynamic coilover. When I ran my KW V3 on almost full soft settings, I found that the comfort/sports HPA Motorsport KW coilover spring rate did a better job of matching the spring rate to the lower damper rate than my softened KW V3 coilover. In other words, the HPA KW coilover kit was a better spring rate match for the softer damper settings. Having the KW Dynamic coilover cover such a wide range of damping rate – from KW Street Comfort to KW Clubsport – seems to me to be an extremely difficult task. In my experience, it meant change suspension 3 times over from Eibach ProKit/FSD to KW V3 to HPA Motorsport KW street/comfort coilover.

Cheers.
WJ

[kaanage]

Spot on WhiteJames.

[Erik@EVL]

Hi WJ,

You are right - it can never 100% replicate a set Clubsports with semi-slicks then adjust all the way across to a road tyred Street Comfort on 0 rebound. However it does come close considering it is road focussed, the key constants must remain - static vehicle load and the tyre. The damping (both compression and rebound variations) is then controlled/integrated with VW DCC. It is really made for plug and play - with only height as its main external adjustment. It's always upto the goal of the Driver - if you only ever want laptime then with a set of clubsports and semi-slicks you are well on the way - you are at the speeds and tyre g forces that need a firmer rate and damper control. If you want only comfort in the traffic, yes you know the answer there.....

The KW DDC is a way to integrate the full features of the VW DCC into a lowering/road coilover that can react in milliseconds to the inputs of the VW systems, plus give much more meaningful change to the drive when switching between modes - otherwise why ever option the DCC from the factory? The VW DCC has many inputs to determine exactly what damper settings are to be used and this changes constantly and with varying rate.

Cheers

Erik

Most street focussed coilover use progressive rate springs. It is difficult to work out the spring rate as the rate changes throughout the spring compression. Add the complexity of separate low speed and high speed compression rates, and it all gets very complex. I found that in order to make the info palpable to forums readers, you can generalise spring rates, albeit with a very broad margin for error.

In very general terms, I found that my first Eibach ProKit/Koni FSD strut kit about 15% firmer in spring rate than the OE springs (mainly in the mid range spring rate due to progressive natural of springs, with less spring rate earlier in the compression cycle). Replacing that kit with the KW V3 coilover had springs rates about 35% above the OE MK5 Golf GTI spring rate. The KW V3 was good for bitumen freeway (not concrete) and short drives of less than 2 hours in duration. Otherwise, even on softest setting, I found them too firm for Sydney roadways, concrete and long distance hauls on country roadways (H&R bars didn’t help, but H&R sway bars were not so much an issue with the Eibach/FSD kit).

By turning the KW V3 down to their softest on compression and rebound setting, they did exhibit a slight tendency towards being underdamped. Of course, if you turn the KW V3 up to almost full hard, they are most like going to be overdamped and not let the spring do its job. The damping range has to fit the spring rate. With coilovers, this is about mid level damper settings. My concern with the new KW Dynamic (DCC) coilover is that the spring rate may be too high to begin with; regardless if the damping can be made comparable to OE Comfort mode on the DCC Mark 6 Golf GTI. Same deal with hard being like the Clubsport KW coilover. Clubsport coilovers, to my knowledge, are basically the KW V3 with a linear spring having a higher spring rate and camber top plates that are designed to work with semi-slicks on the road/track.

I’m finding it difficult to fathom how KW are able to have a coilover act like a standard DCC Golf GTI in Comfort & Normal mode in soft setting, and then act like a KW Clubsport coilover without any change in spring rate. The damper rate has to work around the spring rate. I’m interested to know where is that starting point for the KW Dynamic coilover. When I ran my KW V3 on almost full soft settings, I found that the comfort/sports HPA Motorsport KW coilover spring rate did a better job of matching the spring rate to the lower damper rate than my softened KW V3 coilover. In other words, the HPA KW coilover kit was a better spring rate match for the softer damper settings. Having the KW Dynamic coilover cover such a wide range of damping rate – from KW Street Comfort to KW Clubsport – seems to me to be an extremely difficult task. In my experience, it meant change suspension 3 times over from Eibach ProKit/FSD to KW V3 to HPA Motorsport KW street/comfort coilover.

Cheers.
WJ

[kaanage]

But the point WhiteJames and I keep coming back to is that an adaptive damping system cannot change the spring rate(s) of the system. It can alter damping to adjust the response frequency which will affect comfort and wheel control to a degree but it doesn't alter the basic stiffness which is set by the springs.

So please can you answer our question on what the relative spring rate increase (since I seriously doubt KW would use the same or lower spring rates) is vs standard.

You imply that the damping changes between modes is more pronounced but that cannot provide a 'firmer rate' unless KW have engineered fully active suspension (which would make them the performance bargain of all aftermarket enhancements).