Running a car without swaybars (including removing OEM front sway)

[noone]

As the Title suggests, I'm interested in the option of removing the sways from my car (Polo GTI). Currently I'm running aftermarket sways front and back.

As I have installed KW V1's, I'm wondering how the comfort / noise / handling / stability will be affected.

As many of the VW's come with a front sway as standard and many people add a rear one, I'm also interested in understanding going the other way.

I've done a little digging, but did not come up with much.

So....
- Opinions
- Recommendations
- Concerns
- Legality issues

I'm thinking that with a performance oriented shock & spring and coilover combo that it won't be noticeable compared to removing on the stock setup, but I'm yet to try...

[kaanage]

I would expect that you will get a noticable increase in the amount of roll at the front but not much more at the back (since the torsion beam is a big anti-roll bar in itself).

General comfort should improve since the overall spring rates will be decreased a bit but the extra roll at the front may be disconcerting (or may not). Noise should be decrease just by having fewer moving parts and paths for vibration etc to be transmitted.

If the increase in front roll is not excessive, then there will be an increase in front end grip, reducing understeer. Otherwise, the extra movement may affect the camber enough to reduce front end grip, increasing understeer.

And the reduction in rear roll stiffness will increase rear end grip, increasing understeer.

Transient response will suffer since there will be more suspension movement from cornering loads - it may be noticable on road but may not.

I can't see any legality issues at all.

Basically, you're going to have to try it as it all hinges on how the front end behaves since that will be most affected. And I'm very interested in your findings as I may try this once my B12 kit is installed.

[dylan8]

look in the mk4 section on vortex. Once the guys lower past a certain point they believe there is no lose in removing them
Dunno about the polo, but golf and bora drivers tend to drop them basically because they get in the way when you lower past 40mm.
If the polos dont have that problem id just leave them in (stock or aftermarket).
Vw put them in there, there must be a reason...
But otherwise im keen to see what you find because even with my aftermarket one it was getting in the way...

[rayray086]

Mk3 owners who have removed their front swaybar felt that the car tended to snap oversteer more easily.

[noone]

Was it a significant risk or an increased tendency?

I need to search more, surely with the front swat being standard on so many models there are more instances of this being tried and discussed.

[kaanage]

Mk3 owners who have removed their front swaybar felt that the car tended to snap oversteer more easily.

That sounds like the front end does get more grip then, without the swaybar, on the Mk3. Could definitely be worth trying with my Polo, then, as a bit of lift off oversteer would be nice.

[rayray086]

Was it a significant risk or an increased tendency?

I need to search more, surely with the front swat being standard on so many models there are more instances of this being tried and discussed.

I think that answer is dependent on the driver involved haha. But on Vortex, those who participate in autocross/gymkhana have found removing the front swaybar was achieving the same effect as adding a beefy rear swaybar.

[noone]

So I did a little playing yesterday. Comparisons are made between my normal setup (running 2 aftermarket sways, both on soft settings).

Removing the rear swaybar and leaving the front only on the softer setting the car felt like it was loosing traction. When cornering the car lost traction sooner when applying power out of corners. The comfort was a little improved over uneven surfaces as the sways were not fighting each other for control.

Disconnecting the front sway and removing the rear the car does feel different. The movement of the car over uneven surfaces is much more controlled. cornering has induced a body roll I have not experienced since moving to coilovers and adding sways. With the KW V1's the lean was noticable, but not severe or detrimental from my early testing.

The most noticable experience with no sways is steering at speed. With my normal setup the car reacted instantly and changed directions effortlessly. With no swaybars, I could feel the outside edge of the outside tyre load, which did not add or change the comfort, but made the car feel like it paused prior to responding to the steering command. At first this is a strange feeling and is disconcerting. After a few min, you learn to adjust the steering input and don't really notice the difference in normal driving, only when giving the testing or panic input of quickly moving the steering wheel. As the front suspension is moving independently, there is more travel when cornering, entering driveways, etc. I found I rubbed in a few places I would not normally do so, if I wanted to keep this setup I would have to take the front end up a little to compensate for the more natural compression.

I have not come to test the cornering ability in any real way as I have concern around what some other people have said about the sudden loss of traction. When I find a suitable time / location, I'll have a go.

So, thus far I've found:
No sways improves comfort - guessed and confirmed
Sways reduce body roll - we knew that
A front sway with no rear sway (for my setup) induces understeer - I had read this, but am still learning about the details
Sways help you minimize rubbing when you are low - Hadn't really thought about it
Steering response at speed is delayed / less direct - I had read this, but am still learning about the details

[kaanage]

I have not come to test the cornering ability in any real way as I have concern around what some other people have said about the sudden loss of traction. When I find a suitable time / location, I'll have a go.

Do you have a carpark without parking obstacles etc, nearby? The easiest test for lift off oversteer is to get the car cornering hard enough to have all the tyres squealing in a low gear (so that the engine is revving hard) and then lift off the accelerator completely. If the car behaves stabley in this situation, then you can try doing the same thing but step on the brakes as well.

I have found that the stock Polo TDi will only oversteer if brake hard while cornering hard on a downhill bend - there is a MASSIVE safety margin built in.

One other car configuration that I would try is the stock anti-roll bar with no rear (if you can reinstall that easily).

[noone]

So I have a bit more to add;

How sway bars work - best article I've found so far.

After a few days of driving without sway's (on my friends test track of course) I've found the ride comfort is improved.
Different speeds and different road conditions affect the car in different way, I have also found some conditions where the comfort was better with sways.

So what does this all mean? Very little for most people. i'm surprised at the little testing I've found on vortex and other sites, there are so many people asking which sway to get and very little real world feedback on how it changes the ride.

Why?

Well thats due to a number of factors. Swaybars, springs and shocks all play roles in how a car handles. If you want to look outside this small window of driving, so does the weight, balance, suspension design (eg Polo along with MIV Golf and older Golfs use a rear torsion beam, so the rear is not fully independent prior to adding a sway).

Along with all these variables is the summary that you can't take someones word for how sways will affect your car as all the above points may be different or vary slightly. I would go so far as to say an identical setup on a new car and an old car may also behave differently due to the different wear of parts, bushes and the chassis flex that comes with age (and some passionate driving).

What have I found with no sways:
Generally, at low speed, I prefer no sways. On poor roads the handling is more compliant as the sways tend to want to pitch the vehicle around. When accelerating hard out of a turn or taking off fast at a right angle into moving traffic there is a little more lean, but the traction feels very planted. As a side note, the traction with an upgraded front sway with no rear sway was horrible in this area, really bad understeer that made all my other handing mods irrelevant.

At speed the response is different. The car is only slightly more compliant on the open roads. When turning at speed, poor roads are absorbed and are more compliant than the linked suspension setup.

The bid difference here is that at speed the car rolls more, responds to the steering input slower and feels more vague. This is not severe and I don't loose confidence, but it is very noticeable at first. without any emergency braking or cornering testing, i'm not happy enough with this setup to keep it. With both sways and my other toys thrown in my car is planted and inspires trust through the corners.

So what to take from all this (so far):
Each car reacts differently. As this article is for my own interest, it is primarily relevant to FWD cars. I don't think many of the practical applications apply, whilst the theory on how they work should be the same. I believe that swaybars are crucial on normal road vehicles and removing swaybars could be very worthwhile FOR THE RIGHT CAR. If your springs and shocks are very stiff, it may be the Sways are not assisting your handling.

As a general guide: what happens, not what t do):
Front sway only - some roll resistance, induced understeer to make driving more predictable
Stock setup with an added rear sway - Can improve handing without affecting ride in a detrimental way. The question is how big / stiff is best. you can easily go too big and affect the OEM understeer to the point of making the car potentially dangerous near the handling limit or during weight transfer (braking mid turn, etc).
Front and rear sways (matched) - What are they matched to? As sways work with the spring rate, they can affect the ride in a way that is detrimental. This setup makes the most sense when coupled with performance coilies / shock&spring combo's
No Sways - Not suggested. If like me you have quality suspension installed and want to have a go, be prepared for the worst, then build up slowly.

I would like to test with the stock front sway and adjustable rear sway, but the Polo design along with MkIV (i believe) requires the subframe to be dropped to remove / install. May go down this path.

I will be testing the rear sway only, then back to the front sway with the rear sway on each setting (3 of) to complete the selection of the best setting (performance vs safety vs comfort) for my setup.

- Disclaimer: I didn't tell you to do it and I don't suggest you do anything without checking the laws and talking to a specialist / mechanic first-

[Buller_Scott]

- Disclaimer: I didn't tell you to do it and I don't suggest you do anything without checking the laws and talking to a specialist / mechanic first-

lol that part makes the thread feel like it's an authority, and a pioneer, on sway bars, hehe

[noone]

Another update:

Re-connected the front sway on soft, re-installed the rear on Medium.

I'm not sure if it's the sway settings, the new suspension bedding in better when isolated, if the rear was out of alignment, etc, but there are great changes.

Now I find the car is agile and comfortable over poor roads. Most potholes are negligible and the traction is all there. The car feels flat all the time. I have some theories about the adjustment settings for the swaybars, but I'll keep these to myself for the time being.