It's time for a major overhaul of Skoda (and VAG) ICE systems

[K1W1]

Rather than ruin Jakes L&K Superb thread I'll start here.

For 2012 model year vehicles the Columbus is rubbish and Skoda may as well install AM only radios for all the worth it is technology wise.
The Sat Nav feature seems to be universally bad in it's operation and ability to recalculate routes on the go.
There is no live traffic update feature in Australia.
The maps are old, ridiculously expensive and rarely available for update anyway.
There is no TV, DVD or Internet connectivity even as an option.
No iPad integration.
The MDI is a complete joke. It's just a proprietary USB interface that forces customers to pay $100 (Australian dealer prices) for a cable when most people have dozens of suitable cables at home anyway.

The Bolero / Columbus options were good in 2009 but things have moved on massively since then and it's a shame that Skoda buyers will have to wait till at least till 2013 MY to get back into the game as far as ICE is concerned.

[sVWatt]

Yeh - can't see VAG continuing with the RNS 510 - it's too limited. It's old technology, lacks true 'multi-media' options, has a decade old style of UI, and is trumped by many an alternative. It's main saving graces are physical integration into VW dashes, talks to the computer network within current VAGs, and so many VAG owners are brand loyal.

Odds on new range of ICE options across the VAG 9 brands for June 2012. Starting with iPad integration and apple-esq double taps, swipes and UI.

[Maverick]

Rather than ruin Jakes L&K Superb thread I'll start here.

For 2012 model year vehicles the Columbus is rubbish and Skoda may as well install AM only radios for all the worth it is technology wise.
The Sat Nav feature seems to be universally bad in it's operation and ability to recalculate routes on the go.

In what way is the sat nav bad in it's operation? It recalculates routes on the go just fine.

There is no live traffic update feature in Australia.

And what does this have to do with VW? There is no live traffic service offered in Australia outside of the limited and useless SUNA service. Direct your complaint to the Australian Government as they're responsible for the lack of a open offering that works.

The maps are old, ridiculously expensive and rarely available for update anyway.

The maps are current when they are released each year, it's hardly VW's fault that the Australian mapping market is behind the times. Direct your complaint to Sensis (Telstra).

There is no TV, DVD or Internet connectivity even as an option.

Last time I looked there were reasons for this including a little thing called the law. BTW the RNS 510 offers DVD playback and can have a TV tuner connected.

No iPad integration.

Why should there be? My toaster doesn't integrate either but it doesn't mean that's VW's fault.

The MDI is a complete joke. It's just a proprietary USB interface that forces customers to pay $100 (Australian dealer prices) for a cable when most people have dozens of suitable cables at home anyway.

VW isn't at fault, Apple are the ones with the proprietary connector and interface on their product. No one is forcing you to purchase Apple products and every USB flash drive no matter from which manufacturer can plug into the usb interface that is standard.

The Bolero / Columbus options were good in 2009 but things have moved on massively since then and it's a shame that Skoda buyers will have to wait till at least till 2013 MY to get back into the game as far as ICE is concerned.

Most people are happy to have a well integrated product that works well and not mess around watching DVDs, surfing the internet and watching TV whilst playing with their iTurd, iCrud and iPoo's and trying to drive. Maybe the problem is not with VW but instead is with your unrealistic and illegal requirements from a headunit.

[Maverick]

Odds on new range of ICE options across the VAG 9 brands for June 2012. Starting with iPad integration and apple-esq double taps, swipes and UI.

Don't hold your breath waiting for VW to jump into bed with Apple, VW is doing a lot of work with Google. Take a look at the new Audi sat nav systems with full integration with Google services including live traffic, internet access, wifi hotpot in the car etc etc.

As for the iPoo why on earth would anyone want to integrate that into a car? It's not legal and it's not useful, VW spends a heap of money on screens that are readable in the sun so adding a 10" mirror to your dash isn't really smart.

Sent from my Motorola Xoom using Tapatalk.

[Transporter]

Don't hold your breath waiting for VW to jump into bed with Apple, VW is doing a lot of work with Google. Take a look at the new Audi sat nav systems with full integration with Google services including live traffic, internet access, wifi hostpot in the car etc etc.

As for the iPoo why on earth would anyone want to integrate that into a car? It's not legal and it's not useful, VW spends a heap of money on screens that are readable in the sun so adding a 10" mirror to your dash isn't really smart.

I couldn' agree more. Wouldn't want iPad if it was 10x cheaper than Android gear.

Sent from my Galaxy Tab using Tapatalk.

[wandersen]

The latest VW systems used on the Phaeton also include internet access and google maps.

[Maverick]

The latest VW systems used on the Phaeton also include internet access and google maps.

The Phaeton has a RNS 810 which came out a while ago, it's based on the RNS 510 and is essentially just a bigger screen with some upgrades.

One of the features of the RNS 810 is a camera in the rear vision mirror that faces forward, it reads road signs to give you updates on speed that the maps may not have, this can be activated on the RNS 510 however without a camera it won't work. The system is also able to detect no overtaking signs and other warning signs.

The new Touareg is also getting the RNS 810.

[brenno]

VW isn't at fault, Apple are the ones with the proprietary connector and interface on their product. No one is forcing you to purchase Apple products and every USB flash drive no matter from which manufacturer can plug into the usb interface that is standard.

How come other manufacturers offerings work with no issues then? Why can't they have a simple USB port that supports all devices?

I've used a few iPhone supported setups recently in other cars and it's clear the VW effort really is terrible.

[Maverick]

How come other manufacturers offerings work with no issues then?

Most of them have problems as well. VW used the Apple specifications for the interface and Apple change these from time to time with different firmware (and sometimes hardware like the charging issue).

Why can't they have a simple USB port that supports all devices?

Because not everything is capable of being connected to a USB port. How do you route an analogue signal through a USB port?

The MDI connector is designed to be able to accept analogue and digital in the same connector, for example a usb flash drive is a pure digital connection, the ipod on the other hand is a combinations analogue for the audio and digital for the control and not to mention is provides power (how does 6 wires attach to 4 connectors for a start) and the audio input is pure analogue.

This same connector can after a firmware update be used with other devices that come onto the market through a new cable. Believe it or not but the world does not revolve around the iTurd/iCrud/iPoo and VW are not going to create an interface that only work with these devices. For VW to connect to the ipod via a digital connection would require the MDI to have an authentication IC (for DRM reasons) so that the iWhatever can play back their music over the digital interface. If this changes at some point the playback will stop so why would VW want to take that risk? Instead they offer a system that offers choice and don't force people into a proprietary expensive solution of having to use a iTurd/iCrud or iPoo.

I've used a few iPhone supported setups recently in other cars and it's clear the VW effort really is terrible.

Horrible in what way? Because it works and is legal to use when driving? VW are working within the confines of the Apple specifications and requirements.

[sVWatt]

Most of them have problems as well. VW used the Apple specifications for the interface and Apple change these from time to time with different firmware (and sometimes hardware like the charging issue).



Because not everything is capable of being connected to a USB port. How do you route an analogue signal through a USB port?

The MDI connector is designed to be able to accept analogue and digital in the same connector, for example a usb flash drive is a pure digital connection, the ipod on the other hand is a combinations analogue for the audio and digital for the control and not to mention is provides power (how does 6 wires attach to 4 connectors for a start) and the audio input is pure analogue.

This same connector can after a firmware update be used with other devices that come onto the market through a new cable. Believe it or not but the world does not revolve around the iTurd/iCrud/iPoo and VW are not going to create an interface that only work with these devices. For VW to connect to the ipod via a digital connection would require the MDI to have an authentication IC (for DRM reasons) so that the iWhatever can play back their music over the digital interface. If this changes at some point the playback will stop so why would VW want to take that risk? Instead they offer a system that offers choice and don't force people into a proprietary expensive solution of having to use a iTurd/iCrud or iPoo.



Horrible in what way? Because it works and is legal to use when driving? VW are working within the confines of the Apple specifications and requirements.

Your missing the point.
The RNS 510 interfacing through the MDI is hindered. It is possible to stay within the law and offer Video on the move. Jaguar, Land Rover do it.

Whether your in the majority and like apple products (maybe not their closed systems) or like one of the 'smaller' players - there are more modern solutions out there.

USB can take analogue - always has been able to - just look at VOIP headsets and dongles with A2D converters. The issue is the MDI is not a true MEDIA interface - just a MUSIC interface - big BIG difference.

Both Andriod and Apple have far better, more intutitive UIs - for me the hinderence of the RNS510 UI is a big shame. The lack of true deliverable user features - like tagging multiple entries, swiping the screen, and choice of settings is a shame.

Imagine - diary reminders popping up on the RNS screen (google or apple - who cares), where the appointment location is then optioned as a 'go to' for the GPS.
Imagine an RNS that 'talks' to your home WiFi network (PC or MAC who cares) and updates the HDD remotely with your latest music and preferences.
imagine not needing an SD card or USB stick to transfer content / data from one device to another.

why couldnt one RNS 510 device swap content with another bluetooth device ?
why could the RNS 510 not keep a cookie trail of where you have been (location, distance, speed etc) and feed that back to your home wifi network -

integration doesnt mean choosing one device manufacturer over another. It means being smart with features and functions.

[Maverick]

Your missing the point.
The RNS 510 interfacing through the MDI is hindered. It is possible to stay within the law and offer Video on the move. Jaguar, Land Rover do it.

The RNS 510 offers a consistent interface no matter what you are doing with media. It's not possible to offer video on the move where the driver can see the screen and this applies to other vehicles as well.

Whether your in the majority and like apple products (maybe not their closed systems) or like one of the 'smaller' players - there are more modern solutions out there.

You can use the Analogue in and use whatever device you want as the interface.

USB can take analogue - always has been able to - just look at VOIP headsets and dongles with A2D converters. The issue is the MDI is not a true MEDIA interface - just a MUSIC interface - big BIG difference.

USB is DIGITAL only, it has 4 connectors - 1 5v, 1 ground and two for digital signalling and there is no provision for analogue on this cable without having to an Analogue to Digital conversion which requires some electronics and doing the same on the other side to convert that Digital back to Analogue which is absolutely pointless and reduces the quality.

The MDI is a MEDIA interface because it can handle Analogue and Digital on the one connector and allows multiple different devices to connect to it, just because it doesn't handle video doesn't mean it's not a MEDIA interface.

Both Andriod and Apple have far better, more intutitive UIs - for me the hinderence of the RNS510 UI is a big shame. The lack of true deliverable user features - like tagging multiple entries, swiping the screen, and choice of settings is a shame.

More intuitive is debatable and is tagging multiple entries, swiping the screen and many choices of settings really that smart to do when you're supposed to be driving? Why do you think the RNS 510 and other headunits all have a clean interface with large buttons and easy to read text? And as I said earlier there is nothing stopping you using whatever device to be the interface to the headunit.

Imagine - diary reminders popping up on the RNS screen (google or apple - who cares), where the appointment location is then optioned as a 'go to' for the GPS.
Imagine an RNS that 'talks' to your home WiFi network (PC or MAC who cares) and updates the HDD remotely with your latest music and preferences.
imagine not needing an SD card or USB stick to transfer content / data from one device to another.

How hard is it to pull our a usb stick, sync it in your computer and reinsert it? You can already put POI's and so forth on the RNS 510 via SD card and the RNS 810 already has google integration (not to the level of the A.

why couldnt one RNS 510 device swap content with another bluetooth device ?

Copyright reasons for a start. And the bluetooth is not built into the RNS 510 so it would have to go through a digital to analogue and analogue to digital conversion.

why could the RNS 510 not keep a cookie trail of where you have been (location, distance, speed etc) and feed that back to your home wifi network -

You mean like the iphone data logging? Have you given any thought to the privacy issues that this raises? If someone wants this feature they can add it onto their car for under $100.

[brenno]

Most of them have problems as well. VW used the Apple specifications for the interface and Apple change these from time to time with different firmware (and sometimes hardware like the charging issue).

Really?? The ones I used had USB ports and they all just worked. No legacy cables....etc. Just works. Units I have sampled recently were by Hyundai, BMW, Volvo and Holden. The point remains - how do they get it right and VW can't?

Because not everything is capable of being connected to a USB port. How do you route an analogue signal through a USB port?

Perhaps VW can come up with some oblique and expensive legacy cable for that. You mean to say there are some VW's that don't have an analogue port but do have MDI? Eek, another example of the validity of this thread.

The MDI connector is designed to be able to accept analogue and digital in the same connector, for example a usb flash drive is a pure digital connection, the ipod on the other hand is a combinations analogue for the audio and digital for the control and not to mention is provides power (how does 6 wires attach to 4 connectors for a start) and the audio input is pure analogue.

OK, I understand this. They are trying to avoid putting in an analogue port in. Both our newish VW's have an analogue 3.5mm port anyway so that negates the whole analogue via MDI thing. Again - other manufacturers seems to make this work well.

This same connector can after a firmware update be used with other devices that come onto the market through a new cable.

Not sure how this is unique to VW or MDI. Another null point.

Believe it or not but the world does not revolve around the iTurd/iCrud/iPoo and VW are not going to create an interface that only work with these devices.

Yet, other manufacturers can. This is kind of the point.

For VW to connect to the ipod via a digital connection would require the MDI to have an authentication IC (for DRM reasons) so that the iWhatever can play back their music over the digital interface.

It must be easy. Why can't VW do this?

If this changes at some point the playback will stop so why would VW want to take that risk? Instead they offer a system that offers choice and don't force people into a proprietary expensive solution of having to use a iTurd/iCrud or iPoo.

Funny you mention how you mention a proprietary expensive solution in a thread about how the MDI system is a proprietary expensive solution.

Horrible in what way? Because it works and is legal to use when driving? VW are working within the confines of the Apple specifications and requirements.

This thread applies for other devices too. Why should I have to buy a proprietary cable for each of my devices, whether it be a USB stick, iPhone or Android. The point is, every other car I've driven recently allow you to take your device straight into the car without a silly over priced extra that is fiddly to remove. It's just a poorly designed setup.

[Maverick]

Really?? The ones I used had USB ports and they all just worked. No legacy cables....etc. Just works. Units I have sampled recently were by Hyundai, BMW, Volvo and Holden. The point remains - how do they get it right and VW can't?

You could at least try and get your facts right.

BMW have a multitude of options which work with different types of headunits and operate in a different fashion. MY2011 onwards allows you to plug in the ipod using the USB connector alone but plenty of owners have kept using the Y cable of all the previous model BMW's as it gives a nicer sound. The Y cable is the same style split USB/Audio cable that Hyundai use.

Hyundai requires their specific cable which retails for $110.
"** Non Hyundai supplied iPod cable may not offer full operational control from the vehicle audio system. Please ask your dealer for further details and to confirm specific iPod model compatibility."

The cable on the Hyundai plugs into the USB for power and control and the aux in for audio. So much for the far superior system! BTW this is the only way that Apple allow you to control an iWhatever, any other ways are not supported and will likely stop working at some point.

From the manual

"✽ NOTICE FOR USING iPod
DEVICE
• Some iPod models might not support
the communication protocol
and the files will not be played.
(iPod models supported: Mini, 4G,
Photo, Nano, 5G)
• The order of search or playback of
songs in the iPod can be different
from the order searched in the
audio system.
• If the iPod crashes due to its own
trouble, reset the iPod. (Reset:
Refer to iPod manual)
• An iPod may not operate normally
on low battery.

CAUTION IN USING
iPod DEVICE
• You need the power cable exclusive
for an iPod in order to operate
an iPod with the buttons on
the audio system. The PC cable
provided by Apple may cause a
malfunction and do not use it for
vehicle use.
• When connecting the device with
an iPod cable, push in the jack
fully to not to interfere with communication.
• When adjusting the sound effects
of an iPod and the audio system,
the sound effects of both devices
will overlap and might reduce or
distort the quality of the sound.
• Deactivate (turn off) the equalizer
function of an iPod when adjusting
the audio system’s volume,
and turn off the equalizer of the
audio system when using the
equalizer of an iPod.
When the iPod cable is connected,
the system can be switched to the
AUX mode even without the iPod
device and can cause noise.
Disconnect the iPod cable when
you are not using the iPod device.
• When the iPod is not used for the
audio system, the iPod cable has
to be separate from iPod devies.
Origin display of iPod may not be
displayed."

Perhaps VW can come up with some oblique and expensive legacy cable for that. You mean to say there are some VW's that don't have an analogue port but do have MDI? Eek, another example of the validity of this thread.

It's another example of nothing, the MDI is designed to be used for analogue input.

OK, I understand this. They are trying to avoid putting in an analogue port in. Both our newish VW's have an analogue 3.5mm port anyway so that negates the whole analogue via MDI thing. Again - other manufacturers seems to make this work well.

It's called future proofing, the MDI connector is designed to work with a wide range of products through cable upgrades instead of head unit or MDI upgrades.

Not sure how this is unique to VW or MDI. Another null point.

How is it not unique to VW? Volkswagen have without a doubt one of the best collection of headunits of any car manufacturer. They have created a set of headunits that work in different brands, can be swapped across different models and even retrofitted to previous models. The UI is the same across the board and they have a modular design. Every other manufacturer has a mismash of headunits sourced from different suppliers with no commonality with other models. The MDI is designed to be independent of the headunit and has firmware upgrade options along with different connector options plus the MDI allows you to place the unit where ever you want without having cables hanging out of the front of a head unit as some brands required.

It must be easy. Why can't VW do this?

Because it's not supported by Apple as I said, Apple only support a analogue interface which HAS to be via a cable that has more then 4 connectors, it CANNOT be via a USB cable as you require POWER (2 connectors), CONTROL (2 connectors) and OUTPUT (2 connectors). Reverse engineering and using the authentication IC can and will see the system stop working when Apple decide to change the way the authentication works.

Funny you mention how you mention a proprietary expensive solution in a thread about how the MDI system is a proprietary expensive solution.

Errr it's pretty simple. If Brand X creates a headunit and builds an authentication chip into it and Apple change the way this operates you can no longer connect an Apple product unless they are running the old firmware or the headunit is replaced. With the MDI which correctly follows Apple specifications this is not a problem.

This thread applies for other devices too. Why should I have to buy a proprietary cable for each of my devices, whether it be a USB stick, iPhone or Android. The point is, every other car I've driven recently allow you to take your device straight into the car without a silly over priced extra that is fiddly to remove. It's just a poorly designed setup.

You don't have to buy a proprietary cable for each of your devices, you can choose to use USB which is standard or you can use an analog input. It's only a poorly designed setup if you are unable to comprehend how the interfaces work and make wild baseless claims about other manufacturers which are plainly BS.

[brenno]

You could at least try and get your facts right.

BMW have a multitude of options which work with different types of headunits and operate in a different fashion. MY2011 onwards allows you to plug in the ipod using the USB connector alone but plenty of owners have kept using the Y cable of all the previous model BMW's as it gives a nicer sound. The Y cable is the same style split USB/Audio cable that Hyundai use.

Not the one I tried. Edit: 2008 model.

The USB connection in the central console can also be used to control mobile phones and Apple iPhones™ directly. If a suitable snap-in adapter is available for your mobile phone, you can connect and charge it in the central console using the extended connection of the music player in the mobile phone option. At the same time, the phone is connected to the vehicle’s external aerial and the quality of reception is audibly improved. Connecting an Apple iPod™ or iPhone™ is simple and straightforward using the original Apple USB cable.

Hyundai requires their specific cable which retails for $110.
"** Non Hyundai supplied iPod cable may not offer full operational control from the vehicle audio system. Please ask your dealer for further details and to confirm specific iPod model compatibility."

Not the one I tried.

BluetoothTM connectivity allows safe handsfree telephone use and audio streaming with a compatible device. Full iPod® integration (via the USB port) allows customers to connect using their original iPod cables, conveniently making operation possible via the head unit.

It's another example of nothing, the MDI is designed to be used for analogue input.

Not really required is it? I already have an analogue input port.

It's called future proofing, the MDI connector is designed to work with a wide range of products through cable upgrades instead of head unit or MDI upgrades.

A better example of future proofing would be to use a widely used USB port, and not a legacy port. Seriously.

How is it not unique to VW? Volkswagen have without a doubt one of the best collection of headunits of any car manufacturer. They have created a set of headunits that work in different brands, can be swapped across different models and even retrofitted to previous models. The UI is the same across the board and they have a modular design. Every other manufacturer has a mismash of headunits sourced from different suppliers with no commonality with other models. The MDI is designed to be independent of the headunit and has firmware upgrade options along with different connector options plus the MDI allows you to place the unit where ever you want without having cables hanging out of the front of a head unit as some brands required.

You said that having the MDI port makes it possible to upgrade the firmware. I really don't see the advantage here. You could easily do the same via a USB port. Besides, if I wanted to do an upgrade with the MDI I wouldn't be able to due to the proprietary cable that VW requires you to purchase before doing so.

Because it's not supported by Apple as I said, Apple only support a analogue interface which HAS to be via a cable that has more then 4 connectors, it CANNOT be via a USB cable as you require POWER (2 connectors), CONTROL (2 connectors) and OUTPUT (2 connectors). Reverse engineering and using the authentication IC can and will see the system stop working when Apple decide to change the way the authentication works.

Yeah yeah.....you said all that previously. Why does it work in other cars though? This is the bit I want in my VAG vehicle

Errr it's pretty simple. If Brand X creates a headunit and builds an authentication chip into it and Apple change the way this operates you can no longer connect an Apple product unless they are running the old firmware or the headunit is replaced. With the MDI which correctly follows Apple specifications this is not a problem.

Aah, so all of a sudden it's not possible to update the firmware of any other manufacturers head unit. It's only possible on VAG cars with an MDI. Got it.

You don't have to buy a proprietary cable for each of your devices, you can choose to use USB which is standard or you can use an analog input. It's only a poorly designed setup if you are unable to comprehend how the interfaces work and make wild baseless claims about other manufacturers which are plainly BS.

Sorry, did you just say that I don't have to buy a proprietary cable in order to use USB?

Of course I can use analog inputs, but seriously, I had analogue inputs on a VW in 1993. I'd like something a bit more up-to-date now.

I want to be able to take my Android or iOS device, whatever tickles your fancy....no misguided hate or angst here, and plug it into the car with the supplied cable, and it just works.

What I *don't* want to have to do, is get home after having a new car delivered to me, and realise I have to go back to the dealer, and buy different over-priced cables and have to swap them around (which is a real pain in the arse) whenever I want to change my device. It's a poorly designed system for those with multiple devices, and that's one of the key points by the OP in this thread.

[sVWatt]

You could at least try and get your facts right...

...if you are unable to comprehend how the interfaces work and make wild baseless claims about other manufacturers which are plainly BS.

Hey Mav . . . making a comment on the forum does not mean replying with twaddle and BS remarks.

You're obviously a fan of early 2000 technology priced as hi end stuff. And I can read your keen on old fashioned interfaces and worry about copyright on suggestions of future features. But I'll bet there are others out there that think it healthy to debate what could be and what might be. Hang in there.