APR tune price hike

[VW Convert]

It makes it hard to run a business based on imported product, especially if you aren't big enough to hedge the forex.

100% correct Brad, we're a small aftermarket company competing against a major OE. Landed costs have increased around 30-40% this year but the OE must have hedged as they have not increased prices since the beginning of this year. Making the sale means skinny margins.

Cheers

George

[Primordial]

Always thought this was the laws of physics kicking in, higher temperature = lower air density, lower air density = less oxygen, less oxygen = less fuel can be burned, less fuel can be burned = less fuel is injected, therefore = less power.

I may be wrong though.

Cheers

George

Sorry you're dead right - less oxygen = rich scenario. I was more questioning whether the flash tunes would adapt in the same way as the OEM parameters.

[Guy_H]

Sorry you're dead right - less oxygen = rich scenario. I was more questioning whether the flash tunes would adapt in the same way as the OEM parameters.

The entire strategy of the Simos 18 (and 12) is to target Lambda 1 under all conditions - not seen before in VW / Audi land. A proper ECU tune richens it up based on a whole bunch of factors, and you also have all the component protection modes which effectively cool everything down at a certain level.

What we have seen with tuning boxes is they do not (because they can not) richen the mixture under any circumstances. If you run your vehicle on a dyno with the tuning box attached, you would probably remove it on the spot.

As a test - do that & report back!

There is this tech thread for further info:

New A3 / S3 3rd gen EA888 Engine tuning, Tuning boxes & Reflash tech discussion.

And here is an independent dyno of a tuning box (increasing boost but not richening the mixture) as an example.

[Umai Naa!!]

Well that's a quick way to blast a hole through the side of a piston.

[VW Convert]

Well that's a quick way to blast a hole through the side of a piston.

But it doesn't cost as much as a tune.............right?

Cheers

George

[nat225]

But it doesn't cost as much as a tune.............right?

Cheers

George

find me a new TSI or used engine with labour to fit under $2k.

[VW Convert]

find me a new TSI or used engine with labour to fit under $2k.

Tongue was firmly in cheek.

Cheers

George

[Primordial]

The entire strategy of the Simos 18 (and 12) is to target Lambda 1 under all conditions - not seen before in VW / Audi land. A proper ECU tune richens it up based on a whole bunch of factors, and you also have all the component protection modes which effectively cool everything down at a certain level.

What we have seen with tuning boxes is they do not (because they can not) richen the mixture under any circumstances. If you run your vehicle on a dyno with the tuning box attached, you would probably remove it on the spot.

As a test - do that & report back!

There is this tech thread for further info:

New A3 / S3 3rd gen EA888 Engine tuning, Tuning boxes & Reflash tech discussion.

And here is an independent dyno of a tuning box (increasing boost but not richening the mixture) as an example.

I see - Good to see a quantifying explanation. Thanks for that.

So in the case of a tuning box, the mixture will lean out when additional boost is introduced, eventually causing detonation, resulting in the ECU pulling timing. Am I on the right track?

After reading through the thread you posted, I'm wondering how the ECU manages to come so close to the targeted Lambada 1? It must use its smarts to dynamically adjust (based on a bunch of factors) to reach the target, even with the stock tune. Would it not adapt the same way when boost is increased artificially using a tuning box?

To clarify I'm not contradicting you, I'm just genuinely interested! Regardless you've got me convinced that a flash tune is the safer option, no doubt!

--Edit: Taking a stab in the dark after some further thought - does the OEM program not adjust fuelling at all, and only use OAR/trim to compensate the timing according to the environment/inputs? That would pose an obvious problem for a tuning box of course, not being able to bump up fuel to compensate. However if the OEM program is adjusting fuel there would be no issue. Not sure - please educate!

[jazzyjames999]

The entire strategy of the Simos 18 (and 12) is to target Lambda 1 under all conditions - not seen before in VW / Audi land. A proper ECU tune richens it up based on a whole bunch of factors, and you also have all the component protection modes which effectively cool everything down at a certain level.

What we have seen with tuning boxes is they do not (because they can not) richen the mixture under any circumstances. If you run your vehicle on a dyno with the tuning box attached, you would probably remove it on the spot.

As a test - do that & report back!

There is this tech thread for further info:

New A3 / S3 3rd gen EA888 Engine tuning, Tuning boxes & Reflash tech discussion.

And here is an independent dyno of a tuning box (increasing boost but not richening the mixture) as an example.

There is no better settlement in a disagreement than pure and simple facts (and education), thanks Guy. Obviously the tune is better and safer for the car. Playing devils advocate for the moment, with a tuning box, what if the driver was easy on the car i.e no racing, no 0-62 sprints etc and just used the extra bit of torque (or boost ) on the motorway, do you think this would have the same damaging effect?

[nat225]

There is no better settlement in a disagreement than pure and simple facts (and education), thanks Guy. Obviously the tune is better and safer for the car. Playing devils advocate for the moment, with a tuning box, what if the driver was easy on the car i.e no racing, no 0-62 sprints etc and just used the extra bit of torque (or boost ) on the motorway, do you think this would have the same damaging effect?

that would be like being married to a supermodel (Jenner or Kerr) but you only get see her from 2m distance during the nights in the same bedroom... and nothing more [emoji6]

[jazzyjames999]

that would be like being married to a supermodel (Jenner or Kerr) but you only get see her from 2m distance during the nights in the same bedroom... and nothing more [emoji6]

^^^^ hahaha love this

[AdamD]

Playing devils advocate for the moment, with a tuning box, what if the driver was easy on the car i.e no racing, no 0-62 sprints etc and just used the extra bit of torque (or boost ) on the motorway, do you think this would have the same damaging effect?

You don't need to be flooring the throttle or pulling high revs to be (potentially) doing damage to an engine. As a tuning box can't control timing or fuel, it's just winding up the boost; whenever you're getting more power than you would with the stock program, the ECU's stock programming is making adjustments to compensate, whilst trying to maintain lambda (14.7:1 AFR, or whatever it is at the current temperature/pressure using the current fuel). How effective the ECU is at making adjustments in a very reactionary manner, in response to conditions that it is not expecting, has a bearing on whether the engine can suffer damage. That's my understanding anyway.

A dedicated ECU tune can still maintain safe limits in terms of internal temperatures, knock etc, and still uses all the tools at its disposal like ignition retardation and dumping more fuel into the engine, in order to get those temperatures down and keep the engine safe. A good tune will be no less safe under operating extremes than an OEM tune, and will react in exactly the same way when it detects that a safe threshold has been reached. When the limits haven't been reached, then a tune can advance timing, lean the mixture somewhat and ramp up the boost (all in a coordinated way) to give you more power than the stock tune would - but only until the sensors tell it that it's getting close to sensible limits. (And it's that definition of "sensible limit" that differs between a tuner and VW - VW needs to leave a ton of headroom to allow for drivers who abuse their cars constantly, rev hard from cold, never change the oil or service the car, and worse.)

It could be argued that in some respects an aftermarket tune might even be safer than OEM, if it's been developed to take a more traditional approach to internal temps and run richer than the stock tune would. I don't understand the nuances of how the latest generation EA888 can run so close to lambda all the time, with such high internal temps, and not do damage. I guess a lot of this new strategy is down to economy and emissions - things that are certainly less important to me than the longevity of my engine.

[Guy_H]

The ECU can adjust to certain levels, that is why tuning boxes can survive sometimes.

But when they do blow a hole through a piston, generally the remedy is to remove the box and take it in for warranty.

Either way, we can not mask the technical downsides of using one on a modern car.

It's like trying to make your bi xenon headlights perform better by strapping two candles to your front bumper. Technically you have have made it brighter using a pretty old flawed technology coupled with risks - Don't see this happening, yet people install tuning boxes without understanding how they work.

[Guy_H]

You don't need to be flooring the throttle or pulling high revs to be (potentially) doing damage to an engine. As a tuning box can't control timing or fuel, it's just winding up the boost; whenever you're getting more power than you would with the stock program, the ECU's stock programming is making adjustments to compensate, whilst trying to maintain lambda (14.7:1 AFR, or whatever it is at the current temperature/pressure using the current fuel). How effective the ECU is at making adjustments in a very reactionary manner, in response to conditions that it is not expecting, has a bearing on whether the engine can suffer damage. That's my understanding anyway.

A dedicated ECU tune can still maintain safe limits in terms of internal temperatures, knock etc, and still uses all the tools at its disposal like ignition retardation and dumping more fuel into the engine, in order to get those temperatures down and keep the engine safe. A good tune will be no less safe under operating extremes than an OEM tune, and will react in exactly the same way when it detects that a safe threshold has been reached. When the limits haven't been reached, then a tune can advance timing, lean the mixture somewhat and ramp up the boost (all in a coordinated way) to give you more power than the stock tune would - but only until the sensors tell it that it's getting close to sensible limits. (And it's that definition of "sensible limit" that differs between a tuner and VW - VW needs to leave a ton of headroom to allow for drivers who abuse their cars constantly, rev hard from cold, never change the oil or service the car, and worse.)

It could be argued that in some respects an aftermarket tune might even be safer than OEM, if it's been developed to take a more traditional approach to internal temps and run richer than the stock tune would. I don't understand the nuances of how the latest generation EA888 can run so close to lambda all the time, with such high internal temps, and not do damage. I guess a lot of this new strategy is down to economy and emissions - things that are certainly less important to me than the longevity of my engine.

A great example of this is the APR tune on the 118 TSI's is doing wonders for engine life (reported back to us), where the factory tune is hugely lean to hit an emission target, at a sacrifice of engine life.

[VW Convert]

that would be like being married to a supermodel (Jenner or Kerr) but you only get see her from 2m distance during the nights in the same bedroom... and nothing more [emoji6]

This would be a candidate for best post of the year! Love it

Cheers

George