2010 MkII Scout 103TDI towball query

[Skooter]

If there's a thread on this, please redirect me - have searched in vain.

I'm totally confused by rated towball weights. We are looking to buy a Jayco Eagle touring camper-trailer (unladen mass 973kg), which is way under the Scout's 1600kg max tow weight, but Jayco specify a towball weight for this van as 100kg, while the Skoda is rated at 80kg!!

Not one Jayco has a towball weight anywhere near that low (and they pride themselves on making vans that just about 'any car' can tow). The Scout tows really well - it's often reviewed with towing in mind and comes out with flying colours. I have no doubt it will haul this van easily (Oettinger remap for 130kw and 380NM and a VERY broad powerband), but can anyone explain towball weights to me? Any direct towing experience with an Octavia or preferably, a Scout?

PS Anyone know if Jeff from Ironbull is still in business? Bought my kit from him and thought he might have some info. Also want to know why his Jaeger trailer harness kits don't require VCDS changes - all works 'cept the reversing sensors don't disengage.

[Umai Naa!!]

The reason the towbar electrics in this instance don't require coding, is because they're not integrated into the vehicle like the OEM kit is. The OEM trailer electrics do more than just turn the bulbs on, on the caravan.

The thing with the towbar ball weight, is that it is stipulated by Skoda. You'd need to discuss your options with Jayco. Exceeding the ball weight obviously comes with potential warranty and insurance implications. Caravans are a compromise at the best of times, with regards to packaging and user-friendliness.

[brad]

typical European low ball weight. Very common over there.

[Guest001]

Firstly when considering towing weights The UNLADEN weight is immaterial Its the ATM or maximum allowable loaded weight you have to worry about because thats what you are going to tow. No one goes on holiday towing an empty van.

As far as towball weight is concerned Euro vans are built differently to Aussie vans and traditionally have a lighter ballweight by design.

Aussie vans usually have and need at least 10% of total loaded weight on the ball EG my 2965Kg van had a ball weight of 300kg.

It is unwise to exceed the cars stated limit as it can lead to damage to the body of the car and maybe cause an accident if that occurs.

When buying vans the best advice is find the van you like and THEN buy the vehicle to tow it.

When we started we did it the wrong way and it cost us $23,000 to upgrade to a suitable tug.
Also by exceeding the ball weight can exceed your rear axle rating.
Remember also that your ball weight forms part of the tugs payload so if your tug has a payload of 500kg you have to deduct the 80kg ballweight from that.
If the trailer has electric brakes you will need a brake controller Best two are a Tekonsha Prodigy or a Redarc Towpro (NOT the old model)

There are very few if any vans or even camper trailers that will have an 80kg ballweight unless you go to Euros like Bailey, York, Adria or similar. Dont know about any camper trailers.

[Gerrycan]

The UK usually recommend a nose weight of between 5% and 7% of the all up weight being towed.
Why would Aussie designed caravans require so much more than a Euro equivalent unless they are putting a lot of weight at the back of the van? A 100 kg down weight for a small caravan seems remarkably excessive to me and suggests it is to compensate for bad design.
Lots of very complimentary reviews and awards for the Mk2 Scout as a towing vehicle on the interweb.

[brad]

The UK usually recommend a nose weight of between 5% and 7% of the all up weight being towed.
Why would Aussie designed caravans require so much more than a Euro equivalent unless they are putting a lot of weight at the back of the van? A 100 kg down weight for a small caravan seems remarkably excessive to me and suggests it is to compensate for bad design.
Lots of very complimentary reviews and awards for the Mk2 Scout as a towing vehicle on the interweb.

Heavy ball weight is a North American thing

[Guest001]

The reason for the difference is that the Euro vans are normally a lighter weight construction with C section chassis and lighter composite type walls. They frequently dont have water tanks either.
Their weight is distributed differently also with the heavy bits above the axles which are more centrally centred.
All this gives them a lesser tare weight and lighter ball weight than equivalent Aussie vans

Aussie vans traditionally are built on a heavy box section steel chassis and have heavier wall construction. With a plethora of internal designs and the inclusion of up to 180L of water capacity they end up much heavier for the equiv size to the Euro.
To enable them to tow better the axles are placed further back than centre thereby increasing ball load.
Due to our dry continent it is advantageous to be able to carry water. Also as free camping becomes more popular you have to be self sufficient.

The theory here seems to have been build them heavy to make them tough. Maybe a good idea, maybe not.
But thats what you have and so you have to buy a tow vehicle to suit what you want in a van.

As far as the US is concerned when we were there twice recently it was 95% 5th wheelers or huge motorhomes. Hardly saw any caravans.
We did see some mainly being towed by F250 or larger trucks with heavy towing gear and some had WDH gear as well.

Hope that explains things reasonably well

[Gerrycan]

Hmm. American excess is hardly a thing to aspire to is it.
Thank you for a very good explanation by the way.
A couple of years back my wife and I were looking at camper trailers and small caravans and decided it would not be cost effective for the little use we would make of it.
However we did note that you were either an off-road type or not.
The need to be self sufficient for off-road use in Australia is mandatory and the caravan/trailer required is very well built and heavy and a totally different ball game.
The OP might like to confirm but I think that he is more likely to be using the caravan in established sites that provide most of the power/water/latrine needs at reasonable prices. So the need for self sufficiency is markedly less and I think a Euro type.caravan would best serve his needs.
I have only towed in the UK many years back. Mainly a glider trailer, which was very, very long, fairly skinny and we designed it to be quite aerodynamic. I towed like a dream with a 1500cc Austin Maxi at the speed limit and with surprising little effect on fuel consumption on a longish run. As you say most of the weight was over the axle and we only ran about 30kg of nose weight.
I also borrowed a folding campervan and that also towed really well with the Maxi as it sat below the car roofline. That could also easily be lifted manually onto the towbar, so similar down weight.
The folding campervan option was our preference but to each his own. My wife does not like snakes so a tent was not an option.

[brad]

This is worth a read & might show that we (Australia) are a bit old fashioned in our thinking.

Towball Weight and Trailer Stability - October 2015

Making caravans stable - here's how

[Guest001]

This is worth a read & might show that we (Australia) are a bit old fashioned in our thinking.

Towball Weight and Trailer Stability - October 2015

Making caravans stable - here's how

The second article is well worth reading and I have read the original.However it should be noted that the experiment was done simulating Euro vans with the wheels close to the centre of the van. This gives different characteristics to an Aussie van with its wheels further back which gives slightly better stability.

The first article has a glaring error in it and I quote "if a Subaru is coupled to a trailer or caravan with a heavier towball load the owner must fit weight-distribution bars, to pull the towball weight back to 90kg." Unquote.

This is a falsehood as the towball weight of a trailer is weighed DISCONNECTED from the TUG. If it is 100kg it is ALWAYS 100kg and should be accepted as such and as such would be too heavy for a Subaru. Also the ball weight is a variable figure and would vary from day to day depending on things like how much shopping you did and where you placed it in the van when you got home.
It should however never exceed the recommended weight or dip much below it


A WDH will spread part of that weight (5% maybe) forward to replace SOME of what has been lifted off the front axle and a very small portion back to the van wheels. The amount varies depending on the distance from the rear axle to the centre of the towball.
The connection of a WDH does NOT diminish ball weight in any way other than the above.

It tightens and straightens the joint but does not lighten it. Hayman Reece the makers will verify that.

The only way to lighten it is with a jack or a skyhook , both rather impracticable.

I agree Aussie van design is not up with other countries but thats what we have.


This guy, Collyn Rivers is an acknowledged expert in the field Caravan Dynamics

I would however like to see whats left of a Euro van after doing some of the tracks that Aussie vans survive

[Skooter]

Just managed to finally log in. Thanks to all the informed replies.

I'm still a little puzzled by the concept that towball weight is set in stone and A WDH won't modify that - I've towed a 'makeshift' camper trailer before, laden and unladen, and I loaded it in such a way that the ball weight was not excessive.

Our Scout is rated to tow 1600kg braked, so a van weighing 960kg unladen will unlikely ever hit that limit even loaded to the gunnels. SO what happens to ball weight if part of the balance making up the ATM is rear of the van axle? I haven't had time to read the articles posted (many thanks!!) but will definitely, as I need to understand the concepts at play.

Gerrycan, you are right in assuming we won't be heading up the Gunbarrel with this rig. I haven't even opted for the 'Outback' version of the Jayco due to the 200kg extra unladen weight. We'd probably drive some dirt roads, but nothing requiring a Prado or Landcruiser.

I've also read reviews with high praise for the MkII as a fine towing vehicle. I have no idea what sort of poptop van would suit an 80kg towball weight for a car that will obviously tow 1600kg with ease (or VAG wouldn't approve it) ... somewhat miffed.

[Guest001]

Just managed to finally log in. Thanks to all the informed replies.

I'm still a little puzzled by the concept that towball weight is set in stone and A WDH won't modify that - I've towed a 'makeshift' camper trailer before, laden and unladen, and I loaded it in such a way that the ball weight was not excessive.

Our Scout is rated to tow 1600kg braked, so a van weighing 960kg unladen will unlikely ever hit that limit even loaded to the gunnels. SO what happens to ball weight if part of the balance making up the ATM is rear of the van axle? I haven't had time to read the articles posted (many thanks!!) but will definitely, as I need to understand the concepts at play.

Gerrycan, you are right in assuming we won't be heading up the Gunbarrel with this rig. I haven't even opted for the 'Outback' version of the Jayco due to the 200kg extra unladen weight. We'd probably drive some dirt roads, but nothing requiring a Prado or Landcruiser.

I've also read reviews with high praise for the MkII as a fine towing vehicle. I have no idea what sort of poptop van would suit an 80kg towball weight for a car that will obviously tow 1600kg with ease (or VAG wouldn't approve it) ... somewhat miffed.

Only a very brave or stupid person would load the rear of a van to lighten ball weight. The concept of ball weight is that it is weighed disconnected from the tug and it is what it is from then on. If a van has a recommended figure of 10% that should be adhered to. Its not done just for fun. It is also a figure which as I said changes somewhat depending on loading but should never be deliberately lightened off for convenience. If you load heavily behind the axle you increase the chances of the pendulum effect starting when turning.

Read the article by Collyn Rivers and you may understand,
As far as a WDH lightening ball weight. It shifts some of the weight, a small amount as I said but the original weight is still there It cant just disappear and become less. As some rigs dont use a WDH the weight is used as a set figure to allow for all situations.
This has been hashed over on Caravan forums endlessly and always comes back to what i have been saying. If you load the van at the rear you increase the chances of sway starting, from which it may only recover when lying on its side in a ditch. There are endless threads about not adding big toolboxes and extra spare tyres to the back of vans and affecting their balance badly

The basic problem with tow capacities of Euro vehicles is that they are designed for Euro conditions and their type of vans.
As Australia is a pimple on the world in the scope of worldwide sales we are not considered in the scope of things.
Aussie vans are unfortunately designed differently and as such are unsuitable to be towed by Euro made vehicles.

Plain and simple Read the article It demonstrates what can happen and why.

[Skooter]

Thanks Hillbilly. I have read both articles (late last night!) and can certainly understand the concepts at play better. The first certainly favours the idea that N Am and Oz standards are on a different plane to those of Europe - there's no getting away from the fact that the Scout is rated by VAG to tow 1600kg braked - with a towball capacity of 80kg, that can ONLY mean they are comfortable with a 5% ratio!!

I do wonder whether the Scout would have been rated with a higher towball capacity if it had been built here (if it were the identical car). I'm going to keep my eyes peeled for Jayco Eagles and see what sort of cars are hauling them. Obviously the 80kg rating is based on some Euro formula relating to 5% of the tow capacity (1600kg). Why would a Commodore be safer towing an Eagle than my car?

One significant issue raised in one of the articles was distance from axle to hitch (overhang). Utes rate VERY badly - The Skoda is very short in this measurement. As for tool boxes on the REAR of vans, absolutely a no-no, but adding weight just behind the axle reduces the pendulum effect significantly. I would never hang stuff off the back of ANY trailer, even driving a load to the tip! The articles made significant points about studying the dynamics of loading correctly - my brother is a large vessel sea captain; they learn load dynamics in heavy detail and very early in their studies.

i'm gonna do some more digging. I need to get to the bottom of this!

[Guest001]

Thanks Hillbilly. I have read both articles (late last night!) and can certainly understand the concepts at play better. The first certainly favours the idea that N Am and Oz standards are on a different plane to those of Europe - there's no getting away from the fact that the Scout is rated by VAG to tow 1600kg braked - with a towball capacity of 80kg, that can ONLY mean they are comfortable with a 5% ratio!!

I do wonder whether the Scout would have been rated with a higher towball capacity if it had been built here (if it were the identical car). I'm going to keep my eyes peeled for Jayco Eagles and see what sort of cars are hauling them. Obviously the 80kg rating is based on some Euro formula relating to 5% of the tow capacity (1600kg). Why would a Commodore be safer towing an Eagle than my car?

One significant issue raised in one of the articles was distance from axle to hitch (overhang). Utes rate VERY badly - The Skoda is very short in this measurement. As for tool boxes on the REAR of vans, absolutely a no-no, but adding weight just behind the axle reduces the pendulum effect significantly. I would never hang stuff off the back of ANY trailer, even driving a load to the tip! The articles made significant points about studying the dynamics of loading correctly - my brother is a large vessel sea captain; they learn load dynamics in heavy detail and very early in their studies.

i'm gonna do some more digging. I need to get to the bottom of this!

Any weight added behind the axle will encourage sway.

The reason that the Commodore can tow higher towball weights is probably due to the construction of the body of the car. It is possibly more heavily built in the areas of connection of the towbar. The Scout is built for the lighter weights in Europe and it would be unwise to overload it in that way. Personally I wouldnt tow a van with a Commodore either and wouldnt think about it at all with my Passat
Nissan Pathfinders had a problem where the rear end was poorly built for towing and several had the towbars literally rip right out of the car. This mostly was caused by stresses when using a WDH.

Its quite simple The vehicle is built for one thing and you want it to do another. Sadly not a good idea

[Gerrycan]

The 80kg towball weight is the same for all Octavia models although the towing capacity does reduce with the smaller engine 2WD drive models so I think that indicates it is more a structural thing because the Octavia Payload capacity of 450 to 500kg is high for its class
For instance I noticed that the new Kia optima with a very powerful 1.6 turbo petrol engine and about 1600kg empty weight is only rated for towing a braked 1200kg.
If you have gone to the expense of fitting a towbar to an Octavia (relatively expensive) then I think its worthwhile seeing if there are Euro specced caravans out there that fill your requirements at a reasonable price. It just cannot be a Jayco.